Jonathan Sheppard

Jonathan Sheppard (00:00)
if you have boomers with vision, Gen Xers with ability, those 45 to 59 year old partners generating a lot of revenue, you have millennials with potential to become those people. And then Gen Zers with drive, you have the best of all four generations.

Kevin Daisey (00:14)
Hey there, what's up everyone. We're live. So, thank you for tuning into another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast. my, you know, my goal is always to find interesting, smart people to bring great content to you listeners on my law firm owners out there. appreciate you tuning in and, you know, today I think I found a pretty good, interesting topic that we've never covered.

And hopefully it'll be helpful. It'll be helpful to me as I'm listening, to Jonathan here, and, I'll be playing along with them to, to ask them some questions and to dive deeper into his topic. excited to do that today. So Jonathan, we will be talking about, I might mess this up, generational. in the workplace. and so, again, interesting topic.

Jonathan Sheppard (01:03)
Excellent.

Correct.

Kevin Daisey (01:09)
I have lots of employees across lots of different age groups. you know, and, so I'm sure again, I'm going to, I'm going to learn a lot here alongside everyone listening. So, excited to do that. So Jonathan Sheppard, welcome to the show.

Jonathan Sheppard (01:24)
Well, thanks for having me, Kevin. Really appreciate it and look forward to a fruitful conversation with

Kevin Daisey (01:30)
Hey, I appreciate we're going to. So, you know, first, first question, the only real question I ever asked is, tell us your story. Why you're sitting in the seats you are now and talking about this on my show.

Jonathan Sheppard (01:43)
Well, the short version is I've been recruiting my entire adult life. Started recruiting when I was 19, always in the law firm space. And in 2000, after being mentored by some great people, started J. Shepard Associates, a full service attorney search firm. And I also own a company called JSA Advisory Services, and we'll get back to that a little bit later. And I've always recruited from the biggest platform.

partners in law firms, know, lateral partners with books of business who want to move. And about four years ago, you know, I started talking with a candidate on screen and, you know, I said, you know, I said, this pops up on screen and the cartoon bubble pops up and it says, old guy. And then you start talking to me. What you don't know is that I believe in what I call the generationality of work. Four generations working together. Everybody's got a different need set. Everybody is what I refer to as generationally judgmental.

The boomers hate the millennials and the Gen Xers, the Gen Zers think everybody doesn't know anything about technology and so on. And as I started having conversations with people about it, I realized it was resonating across all four generations. And when I talk about need sets, Kevin, I talk about like if you're a young attorney starting out, well, maybe beyond getting known in the workplace and stuff like that, maybe you're starting a family. That's, excuse me, one need set. If you're a mid-career partner,

in that sandwich generation, maybe your need set is taking care of your kids and also taking care of your aging parents and figuring out, you know, your life and lifestyle from there. It resonated so much, it kind of caught fire. We started adding a couple of hundred followers a month on LinkedIn two years ago, started doing podcasts like yours, launched a YouTube channel in October and it...

It really, before I told you that I own JSA Advisory Services, kind of forced me into the business of advising big law, mid-size law, and boutique law firms on what I call intergenerational communication and collaboration. So that's what got me to you today.

Kevin Daisey (03:49)
Well, that's a pretty cool, unique background. My, my wife's actually a recruiter and she's been recruiting for probably 20 years in the technical space. so I know that. That business somewhat, from talking to her every day, but, but, pretty cool. mean, there's recruiting and then what you've kind of morphed into and done is taking it to like a different level. and really

having a better understanding of not just a good person that might fit this role, but more of the challenges throughout a law firm. That's, again, like you're saying four different generations within, within that firm and how they handle that and how they're, you know, taking advantage of understanding that versus just, you know, filling a role and then, yeah.

Jonathan Sheppard (04:39)
percent. You know, I contend, know, if you have boomers with vision, Gen Xers with ability, those 45 to 59 year old partners generating a lot of revenue, you have millennials with potential to become those people. And then Gen Zers with drive, you have the best of all four generations.

If you're leading a law firm, it's up to you to put them in the right spots. And it's been very interesting because you talk about like, you know, how kind of finding my voice and stuff.

One thing that I talked to managing partners and committee members about is through this narrative, I'm talking to people who are more forward thinking, not only people that are looking for the next landing spot, but also people that are running firms. And it's a different time now. And people that are forward thinking, you're going to be the ones that really make, I'm sure your wife, you know, recruiting in another arena feels the same way. It's like, you know, what's coming is what's most important, not what's been.

Kevin Daisey (05:31)
Yeah. Good point. mean, no matter, you know, again, like you said, boomers and I'm a millennial, um, technically didn't know that, um, somewhere back here, have an award for like millennial on the move, like, uh, for my whole, for my city or whatever. And at the time when I got the award, I did, had a bad view against millennials to some degree. Cause I, in a business when I was 23 and have always just, you know, had my head down and worked hard and

Jonathan Sheppard (05:45)
You go.

Kevin Daisey (06:00)
And then I found out I was a millennial. It was like, a minute. No, that's not me. And so that made me stop and think, you know, it's just not, they're not all, we're not all the same. So I have plenty of millennials and Gen Xers and probably Gen Z, Gen Z's in my company. And, um, you know, you can't just brush them all with the same brush right there. There's, I got some 20, 20 year olds that are fricking.

crushing it. Yeah. We're buying their own houses.

Jonathan Sheppard (06:30)
they're killing it right they're just they're focused

you know they know what they want you know I was talking to you know someone and I said you know I'm the youngest of the boomers and I believe in you guys you know I what do you want to do and this probably holds true for you Kevin yeah you want to do interesting work with good people at a fair wage and then you want to go home and you want to have life and you want you don't want to be defined what you did for by what you did for a living unlike the boomer generation

You know, and Boomer's and others have a hard time kind of understanding that. And it's funny because firms reach out to me now like I'm the attorney whisperer, like I've it all figured out. And I really don't. It's just stuff that comes out of my mouth every day, but it's my belief set. And if I consider myself an empower, like to say to a millennial like Kevin Daisy to say, hey, you you bring a lot to the table.

Like you didn't want a ping pong table and an open floor plan and all the things they assigned to millennials. And one of the interesting things about Gen Z is they want offices with doors on them. And a lot of partners that are running law firms are like, they're to be on TikTok all day. I'm like, not really. What they want to do is they want to come in, do their work, and then go home. You know, they don't really want to be bothered with other people. So to your point of like you have 20 something year olds on your team, they're killing it because they have the same mindset as you.

Kevin Daisey (07:53)
Sure. Yeah, but I mean, the, you know, again, the bigger your firm and the more people you have and you're trying to grow. Yeah. You're going to have to hire these folks and different, you know, these different generations and you guys, you gotta deal with it. There are going to be running your company or other firms or your competitors or whatever. So they're going to either go work for them and they're going to figure it out or, you know, but if you're trying to grow your firm and continue to.

Jonathan Sheppard (07:53)
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (08:22)
prosper, then you're going to have to hire these folks. You can't stay away from it. So.

Jonathan Sheppard (08:27)
And you have to figure out a way to really get the best out of them. I got a call from one of the top five largest law firms in the world. Somebody sent my videos to the magic partner of the New York office. And he was like, John, everything you're talking about is resonating with us. He goes, are you like a consultant? And so we had the conversation. And he said, yeah, we can't get our first year associates to come in. And I'm like, well, that's your fault. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, well, if the partner's not supposed to be there training them.

aren't there, then why are they coming in? I said, you know what I'm telling those associates? I said, I'm telling them, what are you doing? What are you doing? You spend all this money on law school. You're working for a top five firm and you're sitting in the Upper East Side apartment in New York City or in Brooklyn in your Lulu lemons or your Adidas sweatpants and you're thumbing your nose at the man that you're doing work in your living room. But here's what's going to happen to you. Your cohort who came out of school the same year as you is in the office and one day is at the elevator.

And up comes this partner and he says, you know, I'm Kevin, what's your name? Oh, I'm John, I'm an associate here. Oh, what department are you You're in my department, come to my office, I have some work for you to do. So I go to your office, I'm all excited, right? I do the work, I email it to you, you don't even respond. You don't thank me, nothing. A month later, here I am at the elevator again, here comes Kevin, with another person, Jane, and says, oh, this was the guy who was telling you about, what was your name again? Yeah, John. You know, and Jane says, come to my office at two o'clock. You go to Jane's office.

and she's on a call and she says, come in and sit down, listen in on this call, and then we'll talk about it. Now your cohort has gotten two benign touch points with partners that you don't get sitting in your living room. And when AI comes along in 18 months to take away the work you're doing, you're be going, what happened? And his response was, I gotta put you in touch with the management committee. We need you to come in and start talking to people. It's not hard to figure out. It's hard to put into practice.

Kevin Daisey (10:18)
Yeah, I'm a hundred percent. it's, it's on the law firm and the leadership to, uh, to get this stuff to happen. So you're just, can't hire someone and say, well, they're not doing what we're supposed to do. They're not, they're not as motivated. Um, and just across the whole group of people, like this is their problem. It's their fault. It's your fault as a leader. And as the law firm, you knew it needed to adjust, you know, like you're saying, um, and, give those opportunities to these folks.

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Kevin Daisey (12:10)
You know, the thing too is like, you know, there's lots of different firms that people can choose from. So maybe they want to go work at a small firm where they can work from home and not be bothered, or maybe they want to be at the one of the big firms. And, you know, again, getting that exposure and being in the office and talking to other partners that are out there, bringing in business and things like that. Yeah. If you're, if anyone's listening and you're younger, you know, getting the exposure and having that in person is going to set you apart.

being able to communicate and having a good personality and working on those things is going to help set you apart, especially with AI and all these other things that are coming out. People still need to work with people, right?

Jonathan Sheppard (12:48)
Yeah,

it's a lot of people skills. know, every attorney I've known is book smart. You know, they got to the people skills and, you know, and training them up and, you know, and I laugh at mid career partners. They're like, all these kids today, they don't know, you know, and, you know, people taught you the ropes when you were coming up, you know, and that's the way it was. That's how, you know, it works. And, you know, I find it very interesting because I did a magic partner roundtable last summer and one guy stood up in the presentation.

He said, John, let's cut through all the BS. Like what are the top two things you look for when you, doesn't matter if it's a partner with a multi-million dollar book of business or a first year associate. And I said, that's easy. Want to write them down? I said, number one, subject matter expertise. No matter where they are in their career, at beginning, middle, or toward the end, they got to have a certain level of subject matter expertise. Number two, good human being. Because if they're good human beings that are subject matter experts, you're a smart guy, you're running a law firm.

You should be able to make a success out of them. And the room erupted into applause. It's not hard to figure out. It just requires effort.

Kevin Daisey (13:53)
No, a hundred percent. and that, know, we, we follow core values. hire fire to our core values and, know, being a good for, you know, good person, uh, is way more important than do they have the skill in this one area where we can teach that that's easy. Um, you got a good person that's, um, excited to be there and wants to do good work and have a purpose. We can teach them the rest, obviously in the legal space, uh, have an expertise where, uh,

focus area that you're you're you're well versed in is is very important so

Jonathan Sheppard (14:28)
Well, it's no different than the digital space you live in, right? You have people that have a knowledge of the digital space, but are they good at the client services piece? Are they good at the follow-up? Are they good at thinking thoughts for Kevin before Kevin has to think every thought? You know, that kind of stuff. And that's really where you get valuable people. And, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, I live in the law firm space, but the themes that I'm talking about, they're universal to other businesses. have some big corporate brands coming.

to me and saying, listen, we want you to come in and do a thought leadership piece for 50 people or 25 people. And it's not changing anytime soon. It's funny to me because it comes easily to me. I use the example of people how I knew it was never gonna change, Kevin. My wife and I had our bathroom redone two summers ago. They did a great job. And two days after everybody left, the toilet leaked at the base.

So they send the plumber back in and the guy is like beside himself. He's like, I tell that kid, you take the silicone, you put it around and then you take your finger and you make the seal. But does this kid listen? No, he's on his phone. He's smoking a cigarette. He's not listening to me. I don't understand. I don't understand. He's going this kid, this kid, this kid. And I said to him, I said, I stopped you for a minute. This kid, how old are you? He goes 28.

I'm like, and you're bitching about the 19 year old and he said, you betcha. And that led me to believe Kevin that this never ends. It's hilarious. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (15:56)
I don't know. Yeah. We always blame the next generation and so on. Yeah.

That's, that's, that's the cycle. It's been going on for a hundred plus years. Um, if you look back, you can, you can do the history on this. Uh, so yeah, you're, you're right. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I my kids this all the time too, like, um, because, know, my kids are 11 and 13, but they're going to be on the phones, whether, you know, on their games and they see their kids mostly online and stuff. Um, it's like, need.

to be able to talk with people, have conversations and, and, be likable and approachable. And then whatever you plan to do with life, college, whatever, if you can nail those parts, you're going to do well. and especially in a world that's going to become more automated and AI and things like that. cause if, if you right now could only have, you only have two or three people and cut out 20, who you keeping? You know what I mean?

It's those folks that you work well with that are problem solvers that can have good conversations and be proactive. They're the ones that are going to win.

Jonathan Sheppard (17:00)
and can build

relationships. That's the big thing. I was reading recently about a young lady that started, believe it's called the Luddite Council, and it's basically a group of teenagers that were against technology. And they've gone to dumb phones, where it's just phone and email. That's it. that's all, mean, phone and texting, and that's all they want. And they're like, they put it down, and they're really about the in-person experience again.

Kevin Daisey (17:20)
you

Jonathan Sheppard (17:29)
You know, I'm based in New York City and you know, there's a real appetite for people wanting to get with me in person. You know, this is a great platform, you know, and stuff. But at the end of the day, people say to me, well, what's your core business? You know, you do the recruiting stuff and now you're doing this advisory work. I'm like, well, I always tell people I'm in the relationship business. That's kind of really what it is. And if you have good relationships, timing and circumstance takes care of everything else. That's the reality.

Kevin Daisey (17:52)
So.

I mean, I am a in-person type of person. Like I go to, if I go to something, you know, I taught everybody in the room. that's why my wife doesn't go to, networking events with me or business events. But when I can get in person, I do it when I built my company, when I was younger, it was all in person and I had to go network and I had to meet people and I had to offer, you know, free value, and, build up that way. And so I, I still.

This is the digital way for me to do that a little bit, but man, if I could, if I was in New York, I would be like, John, like let's meet up. Let's grab a drink, a coffee, a hundred percent. And I do that right now. If I go to any event, Chicago, I'll go on LinkedIn. Who let I know in Chicago. I'll make sure I line up a few meetings and, in person is just today in person is so much more valued and valuable. and you know, if I can meet.

Jonathan Sheppard (18:35)
Yeah, 100%.

Kevin Daisey (18:57)
You in person one day, it'll do a lot for the relationship we have versus this one time that we're chatting on a podcast.

Jonathan Sheppard (19:03)
Well, listen,

as far as you and I will eventually meet in person because I'll be down your way or you'll come up here or whatever it is, you know, but I always joke with you. It's like the old joke, you know, you may not remember you may you may not like me, but you won't forget me when you meet me. And I had somebody we were joking about that in a group of people. I was at a cocktail thing with a group of people and a came walking up to us and he said, what's the matter? You don't remember me? I said, obviously you didn't make any impression.

Kevin Daisey (19:30)
There you go.

Have you ever been, this is interesting, you ever been in like a drive through? So Wendy's or McDonald's, whatever. And this has happened to a few times. My kids love fast food when we go on road trips and stuff. And you'll get like someone at the window that is just so over the top awesome that you're like, why the hell are they working here out? Maybe it's just a start for them, but just clear difference in

their delivery and their enthusiasm. And you're almost like, went off from a job. You're like, Holy, why, know, why are you sitting here? And maybe they got a plan. Maybe they're going to school. Maybe it's just the way for them to get out and talk to people. I don't know. But just when you see someone like that, you're like, wow, like that was impressive. And I'm at a fast food place and, and where are they going to be in 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Um, and I hope they take advantage of their gift, right?

Jonathan Sheppard (20:06)
Rockstar.

Yeah, and it's not just young people. mean, you know, I meet a lot of mid career partners who are subject matter experts, but they lack, you know, the good technicians, you know, but they lack a little on the interpersonal stuff. And some of it is because of the intellectual level that they're at. And more and more, you know, I advise them, I'm like, you know, you got to yourself out there a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta let people see who you are, because you may be in a conversation with someone that, you're a pick any sports team thing.

you know, and so are they. And all of a sudden, it's no longer like this kind of off, you know, off putting thing, but you have a little common ground or maybe you talk about music or current events, you know, and something like that. And I always find it interesting. I have a very good friend who's a magic partner of a firm. And I say to him all the time, his five bucks. He goes, what's that for? I'm like, well, my personality, will you? And he's like, you're always like that. And I said, listen, I said, you know, it is what it is, but

Kevin Daisey (21:16)
Yeah.

Jonathan Sheppard (21:23)
Truth be told, it serves you, no matter where you are in your career, to be that rock star at McDonald's. To be that person that gives the kind of service that people don't get anymore or don't expect anymore. Those are the people you're gonna go back to.

Kevin Daisey (21:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. know, anyone listening, I don't care what you do. It's it'll serve every single person. Well, if you can work on this piece, and, you know, it's going to help you no matter where you're at in your day to day life, it'll help you when you interact with people in the street or the store or whatever. and so it's just a, you know, a good thing to work on and, to be aware of. yeah, sometimes I think about like.

Well, I know this, I was just at some legal conferences. Um, I was at a The National Trial Lawyers Summit Again, when you think about COVID where it was like, we weren't really meeting up and then you go a few years in the future and it's like thousands of people cram into a room and it's awesome. People want to be in person and they spend a ton of money to go be at this event and to learn, but mostly to connect with others and people they already know. And then to meet new people.

And these are very successful lawyers that have already figured almost everything out, right? They're just trying to learn a little bit more. Make connections, referral partners, see their vendors. that's another great, opportunity there too, to like get in front of your vendors, like your marketing company or your call center company, whatever. And you want to be at the top of their list, right? You know, Hey, want to meet in person. there's, there's so many in-person, advantages and skills.

that we need to be teaching the younger folks and exposing them to Versus locking them up in a room and saying hey just go crank away and and learn this stuff

Jonathan Sheppard (23:13)
The leaders

that can do that themselves while they're encouraging those behind them, those are the real winners. You know, this one firm I was talking to, another very big firm, you I said, well, what's the value proposition for you? Like, how's it going to make us more money? And I said, well, said, truth be told, the things that I'm talking to you about, facilitating conversations, if your partners become more efficient generationally talking to one another and collaborating and each attorney

bills one to two more hours a week. That's it. It's gonna be a hundred hours a year per attorney times whatever your average bill rate is times however many attorneys you have. And that justifies the cost of somebody like me. You know, that's, yeah.

Kevin Daisey (23:56)
Sure, especially if you're

a big business firm with a thousand attorneys or five thousand attorneys.

Jonathan Sheppard (24:00)
Yeah, you're talking about

millions of dollars in revenue and it all it requires is a little focus. And, you know, one of the misnomers about all of this, Kevin, is that, you know, that younger people are thumbing their noses at like, you know, what's being tried at certain firms. And I tell every law firm leader, the millennial and Gen Z generations and even the younger Gen Xers, they give you credit for trying. Because there are so many firms out there that don't even try.

And those are the firms that are going to lose talent when the silver tsunami comes in 2027 with the bulk of the boomers aging out. There's going to be a hole in a lot of practices because they haven't brought up the gen Xers to kind of have some of the relationships. Maybe give them a piece of the origination credit. You know, they don't have to give away the farm, but they can give them a little something. And that way they maintain that client when that boomer originator goes away instead of having another firm swoop in and take their client away.

Kevin Daisey (24:58)
That's a point. It makes a lot of sense. I, you know.

You're just from a culture perspective, you know, um, and going into a firm that has this kind of leadership, right? Uh, it's night and day. say, uh, you know, a Gen Z or wants to go work somewhere. I mean, honestly, when they, the interview with the firm or talk to the firm, you get a sense of their culture and they're kind of making decisions like, do I want to work here or do I want to work this other firm over there? Um, and they're going to go where they feel.

Most welcome. And then where they feel like they make an impact and they feel like they're actually gonna make a difference. And then also have a life and be able to, you know, go home and have a family and all those things. um, I always tell everyone like your, your culture of your firm is, your marketing. It is your brand and it goes throughout everything. So if I call your law firm, how that Gen Z or answers the phone sets the tone and it tells the client. You know, what's your.

firms like do I want to hire this firm or not? and you need to work on all those things and yeah, having that leadership and exposure for, people across all generations and working with each other, if that's going well, then it's going to shine through and that's going to, you probably can't put a, number on what that's worth.

Jonathan Sheppard (26:18)
It's so true and it's so interesting, really your generation, the millennials, were the first of it because what did you have that other generations before you didn't? You had choices. I tell people, if you don't have the right culture and the right people in place, there were other options for people to go to work. And it doesn't matter if it's a kid coming out of school or somebody who's 20 years into their career. Understand that it's no longer, they should be happy working for us.

You know, that mentality is very antiquated. And if you have the mentality of like, listen, we want you to be a part of what's exciting here, what we're doing. I'm a 50 year old partner and you're a 27 year old associate. I'm going to bring you to client meetings. You're going to feel the pressure. You're going to feel the excitement and you're going to want to be here every day. And that's something I'm trying to instill in those partners that are really running the show. And it's like, you guys have to understand you could be a good cheerleader.

But more importantly, you could be an empowerer. And there's no, there's nothing that you can do that's more important. Because why? Number one, it's gonna make you a lot of money. And number two, it's gonna create a team that you have that your clients want.

Kevin Daisey (27:31)
And it's like a, you know, it's like a, Civil effect, right? It's when you need another attorney, you know, you're attracting the right ones and the employees you already have, the attorneys you ever are going to go tell their attorney friends and people that are like them. Hey, who do you know that's like you? I got an awesome friend of mine who just came into law school. That would be a great cultural fit for us. Cool. You know, reach out. We're trying to hire.

Jonathan Sheppard (27:58)
I engage firms now based on their culture. I have one client who says, boy, you just get us. It seems like every other person we hire comes from you. And I said, I appreciate that. But the reality is you guys have a good story to tell. I said, the word I use is you're intentional about making people a success. If they're partnered with a book of business, you have a great business development plan for them. If they're an associate, you have a great mentoring and training program. You're intentional about making people a success.

That's what people want.

Kevin Daisey (28:29)
That is, um, that just made me interested in thought I was having as you're talking there from what I know from like, I'm just talking about recruiting now, like, you know, if attorneys, you're listening and use a recruiting service or you never have or whatever, reach out to John for sure. um, most recruiting that I am, you know, that I know of, cause I'm kind of, um, you know, from afar, but it's more like, Hey, you have these skills, they're looking for this. Here's the project or the contract or whatever.

and it's really less details on like, Hey, this is like what it's like to work there. This is the culture there. This is, you know, what they believe in there. Here's where they're going. Like, like, I'm going to share this with my wife because I don't know if she has these conversations or even has that information, but that would do a lot more for me. If someone was like, Hey, Kevin, what if you came and worked for us and left your job? And here's the potential like,

Versus like, you make this much for money, this much money. You work on these things. It'd be a lot more appealing if it was like, Hey, they're doing some awesome stuff. Every check out what they're doing. the staff there is like super happy and the culture is awesome. Blah, blah, blah. yeah.

Jonathan Sheppard (29:44)
to be a part of things. You know, that's kind of what

it is. had a large law firm client, person say to me in a meeting a number of years ago, she said, we like working with you. Because you don't think outside the box, you think inside the person. And we need more of that here. I said, first of all, great line going on the website. Great line. I said, but it's kind of true. Like, you want to get inside people and you want people to get inside of your operation. And then listen, again, in the law firm space or another

Businesses that require certain degrees. Yeah, they have a certain amount of technical ability and experience But it's really about who they are and who you are and now you have it's the fault line Kevin is the two and a half younger generations against the older generation in half and the two and a half younger generations are saying if you don't let me be me here I'm gonna go do it over

Kevin Daisey (30:33)
Yeah. And the worst thing you can have is putting people in charge of things that don't care. Right. Like they need to truly care. And I talk about this all the time. Like you need, they need to have mental ownership of your company. They don't have actual ownership of the company, mental ownership where they're like protecting the culture. And when a bad apple comes in, they're like, Hey, this person doesn't fit over here.

Jonathan Sheppard (30:39)
Right. Yep.

Kevin Daisey (31:02)
Something's weird, something's wrong. And that's what you want. You want that to be weeded out as quick as possible. And then they're protecting the culture for you basically. Absolutely. And then again, that all comes through. And then when you put them in charge of a, you know, let them be leaders, they're going to take that serious and they're going to protect everything. Right. And that's how you can grow in scale.

Jonathan Sheppard (31:13)
And you're bright, and you're bright.

Kevin Daisey (31:28)
You need people to grow in scale. That's just the only way it's going to happen. If not, you're going to have chaos issues, fires to put out as an owner. You're never going to be to walk away or go on vacations. Um, so you need to have people you trust, but they have to have mental leadership. And I You know, the best way to do that for me, I think is sitting down with those people. What do you want to accomplish? Not take outside of work. What are you trying to do? You want to buy a house? You want to move to Europe? Like, what is it really?

It has to be open and transparent. And it might mean to lead to where they're not even there anymore. But if that's what their goals are, then you need to talk about that.

Jonathan Sheppard (32:08)
100%,

one of the most overused phrases in my world, work-life balance. Work, we'll give you a work-life balance. There's no such thing as work-life balance. It's about work-life rhythm. How does your job fit into the rest of your life? That's really what you're talking about. And at the end of the day, people that will share Kevin Daisy's belief system and how he delivers the service that he delivers to his clients are gonna be people that thrive in his companies.

If they thrive in his companies, the companies are gonna grow, that individual's gonna have more opportunity and a happier professional life. It doesn't mean that they're gonna have balance. It means they're gonna have better rhythm.

Kevin Daisey (32:48)
I love that. That's awesome. yeah, I mean, we work majority of our life is, is that work? and so, yeah, I like, I like the work life rhythm. that's awesome. So yeah, but yeah, you have to those conversations. Like, what are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to do? And it can be small. Like when I'm running a marathon, okay. Well, that means you need to train, you need some time off. Like, what can we do to help? you know, so whatever it may be, like,

Jonathan Sheppard (32:54)
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (33:15)
I've seen through a lot of employees too, like they that are younger. They either, they don't have goals and they've been like, well, I've never really thought about that necessarily. When you say what's your financial goals, what's your personal goals, what's your professional goals? Do you want to be the CEO and you're now the intern, right? So how, right, how do, how does that look on paper? Like, how do we get you there? You know, can we get you there? What's more realistic?

You know, and I have interns that now, you know, run whole teams. Uh, or we, got two presidents that were, you know, in their, their twenties that run our companies that make hundreds of thousands a year and run full teams. so it's not about their age either, but what is their goals and operations? Hey, I'm an intern today, but I'd really like to run another agency, Kevin. Are you going to start more? Yep. Cause that's our plan. We already tell everyone that.

We are growing companies and we're continuing to expand. everyone here has opportunity. and for someone that doesn't want that, they'll kind of be like, yeah, I just kind of want to turn the wrench and go home. And I'm interested in all of that.

Jonathan Sheppard (34:25)
It's a place for those people too.

And you know, but you're not going to be the one in the CEO suite. You know, I played around the golf last summer with two guys who turned out to be 29 years old each. One was a, he worked for one of the big investment houses and the other one worked for a consulting firm. I said, what do you guys want more? You want advancement or recognition? And they were like advancement because if you're advancing us, we already know that we've been recognized. said, yeah, you don't want people to pat you on the back. And one of them turned around and like sneered at me. He's like, yeah.

I want them to look me in the eye. I said, but what happens when they look back? What do you got? You know, that's what you really need to focus on at 29 years old. Like, what do you bring into the table? Because if you want these things, well, you can earn them, but you have to earn them.

Kevin Daisey (35:12)
Absolutely. Yeah. think the secret to happiness is accomplishment, completing things, getting things done, feeling you're contributing. And then yes, being able to feel like, yes, I have earned whatever it is. Right. This is not a daily basis on an hourly basis. Right. I've earned this next thing I'm to be doing. I've earned this because I paid off my truck or my house or whatever. Right. You know, you're earning along the way and it's life is just a constant.

achievement of things you could tinker around like garage and build something and go man you know this just feels good versus you sit around all day on the couch and then you feel kind of crappy all day like because you're just like you know I don't I accomplish anything today it doesn't feel very good

Jonathan Sheppard (35:57)
Well, I don't know

if you experienced this, how many people want, how many people talk about earning a seat at the table? I want to see it at the table. Well, you have to earn it, you know, and that that's earned through giving it a good rip every day, performing, succeeding, failing, doing it the right way. That's how you earn a seat at the table. You don't earn a seat at the table because you went to the right school and you're four years out of school and all of a sudden here you are, or you've been working for the firm for 20 years and you're a

a good partner and you're doing okay and you just think you deserve a seat at the table. That's not what it's about. You have to earn it.

Kevin Daisey (36:32)
Yeah. You can't just slide by and do the minimum, right? But yeah. So yeah, about your point, think, you know, communication in person skills, emotional intelligence, having those things and learning those things and working on those things. Not everyone's going to have those things by default, but that's going to catapult you and, put you in a better position for sure. and especially if you, you know, as a law firm owner or leader,

If that's, know, your culture, again, the person that wants to kind of slide by or not really worked that hard, they're not going to fit in and they're going to, they're going to go away from you. They're actually going to go, I don't like that. That's, that's weird. That's, that's too much work over there. Yeah. So

Jonathan Sheppard (37:19)
You know, it's different for everybody. you know, the one thing I tell everyone with my generational conversation, Kevin, is if you can figure out who you are and then who the other three generations that you're not a part of are, and you can navigate the landscape a lot better, then you're going to get ahead no matter where you are in your career. you know, firms and organizations that have belief systems have all been upended really since before the pandemic, since probably the

a way to nine financial crisis, like they're trying to figure it out. The ones that are trying to figure it out, they want to listen to your voice, no matter where you are in the generational line. What they want are people that are engaged, like you said earlier, people that show up, people that create the human contact and all of that. That's really what's going to separate one group from the other.

Kevin Daisey (38:10)
No, great, great topic. Great advice. Great, great conversation. yeah, I think, know, a starting point is like that, that one guy was like, he's 19 and, you know, or just complaining. So if you just, if you hear yourself, I think complaining just that, it's those young people or those Gen Z years, then you're, you're just doing more, you're doing damage right there. So just take that out of your, your thought and vocabulary. Because again, I have folks in every generation. and.

It's been successful and it's working well. So you got to look at the person, plan for, you know, at scale plan for what the generations are looking for, what they want and why they're, how they're different. but just take the negative thoughts about them before you you've met the person, I think out the window.

Jonathan Sheppard (38:57)
Yeah, it's

very true. It's like, find the positives, bring it out in people, make them feel the love, and then you'll be able to get through who's great, who's just good, and who doesn't fit your culture.

Kevin Daisey (39:12)
100 % being proactive. like it. So, well, John, I appreciate you sharing. It's a interesting topic for sure. We could probably continue to chat about it for a much longer time. but interesting work that you're doing, obviously, anyone listening connect with John. we're to ask John right now, you know, how's the best way to connect with him, but, cool stuff. I mean, if you, if you're having these issues or concerned about this,

Jonathan Sheppard (39:25)
Thanks.

Kevin Daisey (39:38)
as maybe partners age out or things like that change. Talk to John, look at his content, follow him LinkedIn. John, what's the best way for someone to reach out and have a talk with you?

Jonathan Sheppard (39:50)
can get to me at jshepardatjshepardassociates.com via email. They can check out our LinkedIn page, our YouTube channel. If they search J Shepard Associates on YouTube and through all those platforms, they'll be able to get to me. And I really appreciate the time today, Kevin, to talk to you and your listeners and viewers about this topic. I feel like it's never ending. And there's a new challenge every day for all of us.

Kevin Daisey (40:20)
Amen to that. It's to always be right. So we've got to keep working at it. Things are always going to be changing. So, well, I appreciate you sharing today. Everyone, if you, any reason, need a connection to, or you can't find Jonathan for some reason, ping me. I'll get you connected. I'll go to email introduction and, hook you guys up. So appreciate y'all tuning in Jonathan. We'll see you soon. Yes, sir. Bye everyone.