Charley Mann

Charley Mann (00:00)
It's like that difference between are you an attorney who happens to own a law firm? Or are you a law firm owner? And most people are, somewhere on that journey between technician and full out entrepreneur.

Kevin Daisey (00:13)
All right. We're recording. What's up everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast I'm Kevin. I'm your host and, got a cool guest here. I said this yesterday. I was recording this like all my guests are cool because they wouldn't be on the show if they were. So, Charlie is the coolest though, by far, by far. Here's the cool thing about Charlie. I've.

Charley Mann (00:30)
Don't take it away from me, Kevin!

Kevin Daisey (00:42)
I've known or heard his name for many years. Actually. We never really connected and, you know, he's pretty dialed in and I'm sure you know his name, but excited to have them here today and get to know him better and chat about a couple of things. you know, with this show, we kind of riff and we go and that was just what makes it fun. And then I get to learn along the way too. but the topic today, I think, I can, I can really share.

we can share back and forth and, you know, he Charlie sent me a ton of topics. Like, what do want to talk about? can talk about all kinds of stuff. And yeah, that's the challenging part is like, okay, what was the topic? And, I try to get more granular. So folks can be like, okay, this one's about this. This was about that. but I think this is an important one. So, entrepreneurial, was it, skills for.

Charley Mann (01:17)
Been doing this for a while, I love anything.

Kevin Daisey (01:38)
Lawyers, right? Or insert whatever word you want to, but it's important. You know, as a lawyer, not, you don't come out of school, running a business or knowing how to run a business. You get kind of thrown into it. Once you, know, you get passionate about what you do, you say, Hey, I wanted to go do this for myself. And then boom, you're in business. That comes with a lot more responsibilities than being a lawyer. So,

Charley Mann (01:39)
Yeah.

That's right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It's honest to goodness. It's what I love so freaking much about the work we do is the fact that there's this, like these dichotomous, sometimes in competition identities that the attorneys have, right? As a law firm owner, when you transition from attorney to law firm owner, like that owner modifier on it is such an important one. And

Kevin Daisey (02:25)
you

Charley Mann (02:34)
It's like that difference between are you an attorney who happens to own a law firm? Or are you a law firm owner? And most people are, somewhere on that journey between technician and full out entrepreneur.

And the whole idea is like, if we can make them feel really confident as an entrepreneur, which the mindset is extremely important, like you have to be working on mindset all the time. I mean, you know that Kevin, I'm sure that's something that you work on as a business owner as well.

But if you don't also have some of the practical skills to handle the challenges that come towards you, it's not gonna, like you can have the greatest mindset in the world. So I've got a seven year old Cassidy who she's a very good soccer player, like a really good soccer player. She's playing up, she's been invited to start doing some tournaments and things like that, moving up in age and being challenged by her coaches. I'm the guy who's like, I'm working on mindset with her.

because I know that the other coaches are working on the skills and the tools for her. Cause the truth is like, I can tell her about the value of competition, embracing your role, all that type of stuff, being a student of the game. But honestly, if you don't know how to work with the ball itself, like if you can't dribble the ball, the mindset won't solve that in and of itself. It's like we have to do both of those things at the same time.

Kevin Daisey (03:58)
No, yeah, a hundred percent. That's a good way, a good example, um, to kind of break it down and make it, make it simple. Um, yeah, your mindsets, I mean, it's gotta be there and you're going to have challenges and you gotta do things you don't want to do and the things that aren't fun to do and the things that aren't maybe the things you loved, which, know, the law or serving your clients or whatever, you know, you, you, you gotta be prepared for lots of things coming at you. And if your head's not in it and your head's not.

there then it's gonna be more challenging for sure.

Charley Mann (04:29)
try and remind some of the firm owners I work with in those moments, like, no one really, no firm owner who has a small firm is thrilled when they have to fire someone, right? That's not a moment that we're looking forward to. But in that moment, you could probably think back to a time that you were at another law firm or another company or whatever it is, you wherever you came from previously, where you saw someone get fired, and you thought like, I wish that that had been handled differently. Well,

Congratulations, you now get to define how that is handled. You have gone from and it's that mindset shift like, no, I have to do this to I get to do this. I get to do it my way because originally the get to mindset is like, I get to practice law the way that I want to practice, I get to treat clients the way that I believe they should be treated, I get to put my name out there. And then we start identifying all the stuff that we belligerently have to

do and we feel trapped by our have tos. It's like, can we swap that a little bit? And credit to my buddy, Joey Vitali, who really, like put a bunch of highlighter on that for me over the last year and a half, really focusing on that, like, you get to do this, right? All the challenges that we face, we get to do them. And being an owner, you're in a unique position to really change how it's going to happen to do things differently.

The reason we feel the have to sensation is oftentimes because we're going, you know what, I've seen like 15 people do it this way. I don't really like the way that that's done, but I guess that it's the way that it's done. And so now we're saying, I have to do it that way. man. No, no, no. You can still do it differently. You get to do it whatever way that you want. Now, perhaps there's wisdom in those other 15 methods, or you can figure out something new. Great gift of ownership.

Kevin Daisey (06:19)
No, that's a good way to put it right there. mean, just changing that, you know, I get to and do it the way I want to, or with, I think it should be done. Yeah. Learn from others and watch others and, there's some great people out there. mean, like Charlie right here, or other lawyers that you can learn from and, ask them, you know, what they've done. And, and, and that's just the, the, awesomeness of this legal community that's out there, which is much smaller.

Charley Mann (06:30)
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (06:48)
than you think.

Charley Mann (06:50)
but it feels big to a lot of people. They're like, it

seems like everyone's doing all this stuff all the time. think now you're just like, you're tapped into it. Like people who are listening to this podcast right now, Kevin, they're like, this is a huge industry. Everyone's probably learning this stuff as well. You all my competitors have this information. Like, look, y'all, as someone who has been in the coaching space for a long time, has run podcasts for a while.

I'm telling you, if you are listening to this show, you are in rarefied air, you are a small percentage of the market and you have an advantage by tuning into this stuff. The only question at that point is, are you going to do something with what you're hearing? Are you going to now take this and not just have it be knowledge? Like don't be the person who's on the sidelines at the soccer game going, you know what? Yeah, I totally would have done it this way. You're an owner now. You're actually in the game.

Kevin Daisey (07:12)
you

Charley Mann (07:40)
And you have what I like to refer to as put up or shut up moments. You either need to do the thing that you said that you were going to do, or please shut up about it. You know, when you have those challenges, and we have them throughout life, you're going to be greeted by multiple versions of that throughout life. How often does a thing that you say that you're going to do end up being the thing that you're going to do? That is where we find out what our real character is. That's what we find out.

Kevin Daisey (07:51)
percent.

Charley Mann (08:09)
did this entrepreneurial skill set and tool set that I've started to build through learning and taking some practice repetition. It's one of reasons, by the way, that I love marketing so much is because one of the best places to take entrepreneurial practice reps, you're not going to hire and fire nearly as many people as you're going to send broadcast emails, post articles on your website, launch new advertising campaigns. So great way to build your entrepreneurial skill set. But you get all of those practice reps in there and then rubber meets the road. What do you end up doing?

Kevin Daisey (08:38)
No, that's yeah. I liked kind what you said there too, is for me and you or others, you know, we kind of live in this space and we know a lot of people and it can seem really small. But when I go out in my normal day or I get a lead for a law firm that's looking for some help, or I look at just the normal, you know, mid to small town areas across the country.

Well, firm owners are not figuring it out. They're, not doing these things. They stay small. They, they think small. and they're still focused on, you know, I gotta be a lawyer and I gotta run around and, and growing is going to take away from that. It's going to hinder the, how I can help my clients. And so I'm almost like against it, you know, like it's not ethical to, to grow beyond myself and maybe one assistant. So.

Charley Mann (09:28)
Yeah.

Array Digital (09:41)
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Charley Mann (11:00)
And hey, let's be real. For some, sure. Maybe that's the right setup, right? Maybe that's the thing. You just want to keep life really, really simple, totally cool. What I don't like, and I'm sure you've encountered this as well, Kevin, is when someone says, I really want to just keep it simple. But also, I want to run a $2 million law firm. I'm like, well, you can have one or you can have the other. So which is it that you really want?

And my greatest recommendation is find one, pick one of them, because both of them can be good. Both of them have their pluses and minuses. But chase it down relentlessly and stop living in the middle position of wanting both at the same time. There's a lot of intellectual value in being able to hold competing ideas in equal value to each other. think it's an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, something about like the

mark of true wisdom is the ability to hold competing ideas in your head at the same time. It's something to that effect. yeah, and you know, I look at that as like a sign of maturity. If in our marketing world, can someone understand the value of direct response and brand marketing at the same time, they can understand both digital and offline. too often times people are just, you only do this one thing. There's only one way to win. I don't know, man. It seems like there's a lot of ways to win this game.

Kevin Daisey (12:05)
is

Thank

you

Charley Mann (12:27)
We just got to pick one of them. in the case of a law firm owner who's debating between those two things, that is a scenario where you can't tread both of those paths at the same time. You need to pick one and commit to it. And with the digital marketing thing, Kevin, I'm sure there are people who show up to Array Digital and they go, man, I feel like everyone around me has got a great website. I'm the last person in town who's getting a website. like, you probably Googled lawyers near me.

So yes, you found that everyone has a website because you can't see the people who don't have websites. It is remarkable how many law firms still don't have web. I was talking, Kevin, the other day, maybe a few weeks ago at this point, with someone, a four partner firm that just got its first website, a four partner firm doing more than $3 million per year just got a website. Astonishing, but real.

Kevin Daisey (13:08)
Hehehe.

Well, that's happens. That happens also know that I see it all the time. I just got a lead, um, last week, um, through a, like a fractional CMO. So they have a fractional CMO bit of the business for like 20 or 30 years PI firm, no website. Um, probably, probably like five or six partners. Again, have a fractional CMO who probably costs three or four grand a month to do what I'm not sure, but, um, no website yet. So.

Charley Mann (13:35)
It's amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Daisey (13:47)
And

Charley Mann (13:49)
No time like the present though.

Ha ha!

Kevin Daisey (14:16)
And that's the route you want to go because you just love it. And you got to figure out who to bring in to do the other things for you to run the business, to take ownership of that so that you can be a good lawyer. I've seen a husband and wife teams where one's like, Hey, I'm going to be the best lawyer and I'm going to continue to learn and get better. And the other partners or spouses like I'm going to run the business and I'm going to stop being a lawyer. That's a cool dynamic or like a Craig Goldenfarb friend of mine been on the podcast.

He made a decision early on, I'm a CEO. I'm not a lawyer. And he hasn't practiced law himself really in a decade or more. Yeah. 15 years. Yes. So, that guy is so crazy about his business and his numbers. He was like, I got 111 KPIs. Let me show you my screen. He's got like dashboards. So there's a person that just made that decision. Boom. Here's what I'm going to do. and it's cool to be.

Charley Mann (14:50)
Mm-hmm.

15 years for him.

There you go.

Kevin Daisey (15:14)
You know, hey, I want to, I want to still be a lawyer picking shoes. But if you're the only leader, you know, are you taking your employees with you to a better place and growth and giving them more opportunities? Are you intentionally holding the firm back and not allowing for them to grow?

Charley Mann (15:34)
I mean, the unique thing, of course, when you become an owner, if you are a sole owner of the practice. so I think of you talk about that dichotomy between who wants to hone the legal skills versus business development. Seth Price and David Benowitz, his partner, when they partnered up, they said from the beginning, Seth is going to bring in business. David's going to be a rock star lawyer. And it's been a continually successful partnership for them because they set up that dynamic at the beginning. Cool. Price Benowitz up here in Northern Virginia.

whole thing of you become an owner, if you don't have a partner who's the technical partner, the idea of a lawyer in your law firm, and this is the this is the thing that can offend some people, the idea of a lawyer in your law firm, a lawyer is very replaceable. Like that role for you, there are lawyers who can do a great job. As a matter of fact, because you have become a law firm owner, and you're probably investing in that skill set, especially if you're listening to this podcast right now.

you can bring in people who can spend all of their time on the law and can be phenomenal lawyers. Now, I will admit, the type of lawyer who becomes a law firm owner who has an entrepreneurial brain, which is often a slightly more hyperactive brain and a constantly turned on brain, you probably became a very good lawyer faster than most of the people that you will hire you learned it because there was a natural amount of hustle a natural amount of you just get it done you

Kevin Daisey (16:39)
the

Charley Mann (17:01)
know how to intake a lot of information and quickly put it back out in the world through real practice of those materials, which by the way, that's what can make you a great entrepreneur if you just reengage in that feedback loop through building yourself up as an entrepreneur, same concept, but bringing in a lawyer understand, they may not be as good as you as fast. You know, if you've been practicing for 15 years, when you decide to open your firm, and you bring in a five year associate five years of experience, they're not

going to be where you are, and their learning curve will be greater over the course of say, the first year, than the first year that you really clicked in on everything. That's just you. That's how it often happens. It's, as the saying goes, that's why you get paid the big bucks, right? You get paid the big bucks because you are quick to master learn, and to act. So bring in legal talent to help you out because there's a role that lives in your firm.

that only you can occupy, and that is the owner role. And the buck stops with you, the decisions need to emanate from you. If you are not willing to take that mantle, like shoulder that burden, law firm ownership is going to be very, very difficult overall. So embrace that owner side for yourself.

Kevin Daisey (18:23)
Yeah, I love that. That's awesome. no spot on spot on. And I, know, you're just looking at some of the clients I have, you know, it's, you know, many of the partners have made those decisions kind of like Price Benowitz is, you know, this, this, you know, I'm going to be doing business development or marketing or whatever it is that they, feel they're best at bringing in the business. and you usually have the partner or multiple partners that, you know, specialize in their, their lawyers and that's, that's what they're there for. but yeah, to your point, I mean,

Yeah. Think about that. Like what a great skill to have is that entrepreneurship, you know, mindset brain that you might not even know you have, but you know, it is what got you to hustle, learn and become good at anything, right? Not just being a lawyer, but other things that you can think about in your life where, where you hone in and you just attack it. And you're like, I'm going to fricking get this done. It can be a home project or it could be whatever. It doesn't matter. It's like.

Charley Mann (19:08)
Yeah.

Yeah,

Kevin Daisey (19:23)
You know, if you

Charley Mann (19:23)
truly.

Kevin Daisey (19:23)
possess that, then yeah, turn that thing on and get to work for sure.

Charley Mann (19:28)
Yeah, I

mean, it's like you have, you have all of the necessary attributes required to succeed. You have gone through, you have suffered through law school, like you know how to learn things get good at things to graduate and then decide to take on a big new role in life. You became a lawyer, you know how to become a law firm owner. The question is,

you know, you put yourself on a path when you went to law school where you sort of signed a mental agreement with yourself like, Hey, when I come out of this, I'm going to become a lawyer. Like, that's the thing, right? So my wife's a nurse. She got her nursing degree. When you get your nursing degree, there's one path that you'd really choose ultimately, if you want to use your degree. Now, you can make the argument, getting your JD opens up a lot more potential other paths as well. But for most of these folks, it was, I'm going to become a lawyer.

So you've put yourself on that path, you started to craft that identity and you're like, I'm full bore into this identity. And then it intersected with some messed up part of your brain that said, go do it for yourself though. Like, no. I want to choose which 80 hours I work every week. And you decided, hey, you know what, is messed up thing in my brain intersecting with being a lawyer, guess I'm going to become a law firm owner makes sense to me.

Kevin Daisey (20:31)
I want more time and Good luck with that.

Charley Mann (20:48)
And you did that and you just that that identity shift. It's so cool though, what happens. mean, Kevin, the reward of an owner who like gets on the phone with me and is patting themselves on the back. I had to make this really tough decision. And I did. And I made it this way. Like I actually did the skill that I've been learning and I feel so free now. It's like, it's like a bit of a matrix unlocks for them.

that thrills me literally every single time it happens. I'm pumping my fists, I'm cheering them on. And I don't care if it's they finally sent out their first like email newsletter, or they just hired a managing partner to completely take over the legal side for them, or they brought on a CM like whatever it is, like every single one of those is a win. And let that be a message to everyone that

I don't care what level you're at. I don't care if you're doing $300,000 a year. And your win is that you are now regularly engaged every week on LinkedIn and you're starting to build up, you know, your network through there and you're doing your coffee meetups and all that stuff. Or you're a $20 million firm that just completed its full C suite and mastered its HR department. Finally, both of those are valid wins according to where you are.

Kevin Daisey (22:08)
Yeah, I that. And I've been an entrepreneur since I was 23, 2006. I've been, I've been self-employed since I, dipped my toe in the corporate world and said, hell no, I'm out. Um, no good education. I could never get a law school or become a doctor or nurse, anything like that. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur and, um, marketing was just my, my stick. But yeah, the thing is, it's a journey, right? So every single day it's like,

Charley Mann (22:13)
hot dog.

Hahaha

Kevin Daisey (22:37)
you know, little wins and improvements. But then you're like, you know, you're still going, you still got new goals. I got, you know, my business partner put together, like, this is like our letter to all our folks. Like here's our growth plans. Here's our goals for this year. So it's just this constant, you know, what's next. And then you have these big wins and small wins throughout the day, through the week, through the months, through the years. And that's why we do.

Charley Mann (22:52)
cool.

Kevin Daisey (23:05)
I think, you know, it's why we're here and we get excited about our, company and our people. Um, yeah, they can be small things or it could be massive things. Um, setbacks, problems, challenges, you know, you just got to all those things you should be excited about because they're all going to happen. So, you know,

Charley Mann (23:25)
By

the way, that that actually translates to your team as well. Don't ever lose perspective. Let's say you're running a $5 million law firm, and you've kind of done it all, you've seen a lot of things at this point, you feel relative mastery over the roles, understand that when you bring on a new intake specialist, the first time that they successfully sign up in appointment, or perhaps get a client to outright sign up, if that's the responsibility, that may be old hat for you.

That's a brand new win for them. The first 90 days that they make through where they're like, whoa, I was scared of this. And you're like, yeah, whatever. That's easy. That's sales. I've been doing that for 15 years. No big deal. It is a big deal for those people. Never lose that perspective that inside of your firm, you have a series of wins going on. Not everyone is at your level, you the listener. Not everyone is at your level of personal development. They may never.

be at your level of personal development. So find what those wins are for those people that are just as exciting to them. And celebrate those you don't have to be invasive about like wins in their life. Maybe that's your culture. Maybe it isn't. But there's stuff that happens in the firm that you can go around and be like, Hey, Kevin, that was awesome, man. What a good intake you nailed the script that time. How did that feel? And it becomes a an invigorating moment.

instead of you just take people for granted. There's a great book, First Break All the Rules, that to me, Kevin, it's, I don't know why I don't hear about this book more often. It's so good. you'll you'll absolutely love this. It is First Break All the Rules. So it was this massive survey from the Gallup organization. And they were what it studies is

Kevin Daisey (25:01)
I've never heard of it, so I'm writing that down.

Break everything first.

First break all the rules.

Charley Mann (25:19)
not leadership, but management. And boy, no offense to the world of leadership books, but we have enough of them. We can take a moratorium. Right? We could take like a publishing moratorium for the next two years and then let everyone flood back in with their leadership books. It's good to have the new energy coming in. But management, the far less sexy cousin of leadership, is super important as well. And I like the way that the book really defines management.

Kevin Daisey (25:27)
I got a couple up here

Charley Mann (25:49)
is internal leadership is external. Leadership is defining where we're going. Management is really working on how we're getting there with your people. And the book talks about how to make sure you have a healthy, high-performing team that you don't need to micromanage. And it presents you with a series of questions that you could pose to your team that you're looking for them to score you on. out of this, Gallup also has the Strength Finders and a lot of other stuff. But please read that.

Kevin Daisey (26:13)
Hmm.

Charley Mann (26:19)
I think it got, I can't remember exactly when it was published, it just, it hasn't been talked about a lot over the last decade, but it's fabulous. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (26:29)
Never heard of it. So yeah, first

break all the rules. Check that out pro tip. I'm going to go take a look at that. as soon as we get off this recording. So, yeah, I think, you know, we've, well, kudos to my business partner, Eric, but, we, you know, I've said this story a few times, but we, celebrate wins every day here in my agency. And of course we're remote. Yeah. 50 plus people are like 6 million in revenue. and.

Charley Mann (26:34)
There you go.

Nice.

Heck yes.

Kevin Daisey (26:58)
We're remote again. So we have like a Slack channel that we do kudos and you got to use. first off, I could say, Charlie, plus 10 points to Charlie because he just crushed this meeting that we were just in or whatever. and then I hashtag one of my core values or all the core values that you have simplified. So hashtag quality, hashtag passion, hashtag transparency, whatever it be. And then the whole team sees that.

And then people comment or whatever. But then we also use that as a monthly bonus reward. And then quarterly in our quarterly company meetings, Depperts has recognized the winner of the, each core value. So Charlie won passion for the whole quarter. It was awarded 348 points, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's, team recognition from your peers. It's not from leaders giving out the awards. it's from.

Charley Mann (27:29)
Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Kevin Daisey (27:55)
Little your peers voting for you. And then they get recognized and they get this like, you know, $500 like glass handmade award. They get shipped to them and then we get pictures and then we share it on social. So we really work it in to every day. And, you know, it's just a really cool way to do it. So any law firm listening, if you're interested in something like that, I can tell you how we do it, but just think of something like that where, Hey, every day, we.

Charley Mann (28:10)
Wow.

Kevin Daisey (28:24)
give recognition because it's easy to get caught in your day and just be worried about deadlines or projects or clients and just forget about that stuff. And then next thing you know, why Sally leaving or what's going on. So super important.

Charley Mann (28:39)
Right?

Yeah, man. It's actually one of the core questions within the one of the earlier level questions in that book is, I recognized for my work performance at least once a week? It's a very simple thing. But I can tell you, having seen inside a lot of law firms and been in other businesses, not always the case. Sometimes leaders are very withholding of praise and recognition, really as a

really as a tool, as a sort of manipulative tactic. Now, sometimes it's just literally there's so much stuff going on in their lives. They do not have the ability to see what's happening right in front of them at the business. I don't think that we should just say, OK, great, that's an excuse. Don't worry about giving praise. You do need to do it. But sometimes it is an interestingly malicious, almost cult-like tactic to try and slowly sprinkle out the praise. That way you can use it.

at exactly the right moment to try and keep someone on the line. But you can't build a long term, big, healthy growth organization like that. You'll become exhausted as a leader from trying to do all of that nonsense consciously or subconsciously. But if you find yourself not praising people regularly enough, correct that behavior or examine what you might be trying to do by withholding that.

Kevin Daisey (29:56)
That's a good, good point right there. think too, like me, you know, scatterbrained and all over the place and, you know, extrovert, ADHD probably. so I think for a lot of you out there too, if you've, you know, as the owner, if you're in the entrepreneur mindset, yeah, you're busy, you're scrambling, you're doing all this stuff. You're, trying to accomplish stuff and you're trying to do good things. And you might just not have made room and you're not thinking about it. You forgot about it. So.

Organize yourself, set reminders. Hey, make sure that, um, you know, once a week you're taking time to go, all right, let me sit down. Uh, who should I recognize? Like what's been going on? Like take, make time for yourself. If you're a scattered brain, like I am, you gotta organize a little bit because you can just be like, I was busy. then time goes by and it's not, it's not okay anymore. And it's become a problem. So, you know, if that's, that's who you are, then organize and make time for it. Sit down.

to write down what am I grateful for? What's the team done lately? Make sure you're giving that recognition out there. For sure. absolutely. Well, if I give them recognition, they won't work hard anymore. The opposite.

Charley Mann (31:03)
Yeah, makes a huge difference. Your team will love it.

No, no, no, that that only happens

if you're using praise in place of also having good strong hey, we're aiming for a mission here. We have things that need to get done, right? It goes it loops back to what we were talking about much earlier on holding two competing ideas in equal value. I need to push you and I need to praise you. And if I over praise, you may lose some of your drive. And if I under praise,

you might lose that drive as well.

Kevin Daisey (31:41)
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I mean, obviously you have a goal and you know, KPIs and those aren't being met and you're not on track and things like that. You know, you have to keep in mind what, but you, people can't just go for months, months and months with zero praise, no support. And it's always just negative because we're maybe not on track. And you know, maybe they don't have full control over if that's a goal they can hit by themselves or if it's more of a team.

effort or you're yourself holding, holding back from that goal.

Charley Mann (32:15)
Yeah.

Your team is not made of emotional camels. That's the poll quote.

Kevin Daisey (32:20)
Why not? Why not? What's going on?

Yeah, being an entrepreneur, it's it's a whirlwind of good times. And I think back to what you started with, it's having the mindset of, know, I get to do this. And, and, and I think it's easy to fall into, I think when we start out, it maybe starts that way and you're excited and everything's awesome.

Charley Mann (32:50)
yeah.

Kevin Daisey (32:50)
I

love seeing people start new businesses. I just had a friend. most people probably know Delacy Friday, just started her, own business and she actually called me. She's like, Hey, I want to call you and tell you something before I tell the public. I appreciate it. I appreciate that call. but she's so excited. You know what mean? And she has no idea what's coming probably, but, but I think, yeah, you're in that mode of like excitement and you're doing your thing.

Charley Mann (32:58)
She's a friend of mine.

Kevin Daisey (33:20)
And you know, and then you at some point you start to fall into, I got to do what taxes payroll hire fire. You know, it's and I think it's, it's just natural that that's going to happen unless you listen to this podcast or you have folks like Charlie that you, you, you know, you've joined his group. there's plenty of resources out there and people to talk to. so I would say.

Strong suggests to anyone starting their own law firm. Don't wait to get in the right circles and start talking to people. And everyone's super open and it's just a great community out there for sure. And that's where it becomes small. You're like, this is a small community of like-minded people helping each other and helping their clients. so once you dial into it, and I'm in my infancy of dialing into it,

Charley Mann (33:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Kevin Daisey (34:13)
Charlie's been in probably the legal space a lot longer than I have. I used to just market for all kinds of companies, you know, before we niche into law firms. But yeah, it's a great community out there and everyone's trying to help. So.

Charley Mann (34:25)
Yeah.

Yeah. I love the legal community. I really do. It's my home.

Kevin Daisey (34:29)
Well, people,

get the question like every day. This is from lawyers a lot. Why the hell did you choose to work with lawyers? What's wrong with you? you know, I got friends that asked me that family and other lawyers. and it's just, I always have good answer, but you know, it's, it's been a great experience, a hundred percent and, great people doing great work, helping people, you know, and it's, might not be like the public's view of lawyers.

Charley Mann (34:37)
Ha ha!

Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (34:58)
And I think that's the most frustrating thing.

Charley Mann (34:59)
I know.

Agreed, agreed. The legal space obviously does a ton of incredible work. It helps a lot of people every single day. It deals with issues that, I mean, think about it, like navigating a divorce, right? You need help there. There's negotiations that have to go on dealing with recovery from a catastrophic injury. You've been charged with a, you know, most people seem to dislike lawyers until the moment that they need a lawyer. And then they start to really appreciate it. And of course,

You hear the PI attorney say all the time, like, if you wiped out my industry, no one was in a car accident, no one had a slip and fall, no one had a traumatic brain injury, I'd be fine with that. It would be good for humanity. But thank goodness that we have personal injury attorneys and goodness we have the attorneys across the board who help people take some of the burdens off in life. And actually that's kind of a nice like last little example here of you as an attorney, you know that all of you, that your clients could

if they really desired handle the things pro se right, they could go and DIY their case. But they understand that they need a professional to come in and help. And if you are a law firm owner who's thinking like, I'm still going to do my own bookkeeping, you know, I'm going to be filing my own taxes every year, I'm going to deal with all the little stuff, hire, get teams to handle that stuff for you, great vendors, great people, etc.

The same reason that people come to you to take care of the legal issue, which they could in theory do it themselves. In theory, they could do all the research, they could dig in deep, could compare case law, all of that. But instead they go straight to a professional and in some cases they're paying hundreds of dollars an hour or very large flat fees or big contingency fees in order to have it done. Why wouldn't you pay a bookkeeping team $400 a month to take care of that for you? Those are the types of choices.

align that behavior and the world opens up to you.

Kevin Daisey (37:04)
Oh, amen. Hey, 100%. I mean, you owe I've had our John Robbins on the show a while back and you know, he just, was, he was hyped up, but that's how he gets, but it's like, you're doing them a disservice by not having to efficiently run law practice, offering great legal services that you can see through to the end. You've you're collecting money or you're got a contingency view, whatever it is, but you owe it to that client that signed up that you

are able to fulfill what you've agreed to. Right. And so that means if you're the only lawyer and you have one assistant, you get sick or something happens, or you don't have a bookkeeper or things in place, then you're risking what you agreed to. And so I just had a lawyer recently that I call, chatted with Ashley Metamit, Great Legal Marketing Summit. And he's like, Hey, sorry, can't get back to you.

My bookkeeper of 15 years left and she knew everything and did everything and I don't know what to do. I'm struggling. Um, and single point of failure. Right. And so he's now having to do all this work that he hasn't done in 15 years and be the lawyer and do marketing and everything else. And he's been practicing for, I think, probably some 25 years, something like that.

Charley Mann (38:22)
Nope, just...

When that happens, always that belief for that attorney and if you're listening right now, here's some advice real quick is you've been paying a professional to handle that. The thing that you think is that they've been with you for 15 years. So they're the only person who could possibly do it because of this pile up of institutional knowledge. The truth is you can bring in all sorts of bookkeeping services out there. There's incredible folks out there who can take care of it for you and will swoop in.

and make it seem like nothing changed from the day that person left. The one mistake is, I guess I have to do it because I'm the only one who knows my books. No, no, no, get away from that as soon as possible. And if your bookkeeper did really good work, it'll actually be that much easier for another bookkeeper to step in the same way that if you were to have a lawyer leave your firm and they were doing good work working up the files matters, cases, etc. You bring in another lawyer, and they'd be able to step in comfortably in those cases, same principles apply.

Kevin Daisey (39:25)
And if you have documented processes, it might make it even easier.

Charley Mann (39:29)
the

rabbit hole.

Kevin Daisey (39:32)
But yeah, I mean,

it's a limited belief for sure. Hey, hey, that person left, no one can replace them. Now I got to do it. And the problem is the first place that that person was the only one that was doing it and could do it probably wasn't documented processes. And you didn't grow and scale that, right? That's just one person back down to one yourself. so if you don't grow, that's where you're going to be. So you got to that mindset that, okay, I'm not growing just

Charley Mann (39:50)
Mm.

Yep, exactly.

Kevin Daisey (40:01)
to grow or make more money necessarily. That bookkeeper that left didn't have an opportunity. Probably stuck in the same role with the same amount of pay, a little bit of increase here and there. And, you know, versus, Hey, we're going to grow. We're going to open up new offices, different States. Ooh, I would like to move to another state. I would like to have other opportunities. I would like to lead a team and not do the admin work all day for 15 years. You know, and.

Charley Mann (40:11)
Also true.

Yeah.

That's right.

Kevin Daisey (40:29)
Think that way, you're growing, you're scaling to help your team, their families and your family. Otherwise, you know, you're just, you're just pushing a rock down the road.

Well Charlie, stuff. I usually start with this, tell us more. I wanted you to tell us more about...

Charley Mann (40:43)
Okay, so the

episode's beginning now is what you're saying.

Kevin Daisey (40:49)
We're kicking off.

Here we are. I wanted you to tell us more about your program. And I know you were with Ben and Brian Glass for a while. so, yeah, tell us about your program and how lawyers can reach out to you and how you can help them.

Charley Mann (41:06)
Yeah, absolutely. yeah, some folks may know, you know, I ran Great Legal Marketing with Ben for about a decade. And Brian came in a couple of years ago. And now we have law firm Alchemy. So that's my company where I work with law firm owners. you know, the thing I like to say whenever I do one of these podcasts is if this stuff, like it clicked with you and you had one of those moments where you were like, oh my God, I feel spoken to.

in this moment, I feel like someone is has actually listened to the conversation in my head. That's what we do for law firm owners is we get into the conversation that you're having your head and help redirect it both through the mindset, but also the practical entrepreneurial skills I think are so so important. If I were sending you out on a fishing expedition without teaching you how to fish and just said, the most important thing that you need is patience.

You can have all the patients in the world, your mindset can be magnificent. You still ain't gonna catch any fish. I need to send you out into the world with practical skills. I need to teach you the things that will work and the mindset. We're an end organization. So we wanna build you up as entrepreneurs. I adore the legal profession. this stuff is like clicked for you. If you go to lawfirmalchemy.com, like that's where the journey begins, right? Get on the email list.

You'll see our program catalyst. That's where most people start with us. It's a, it's a monthly coaching program. And, you know, we w we're working with some really awesome firm owners right now. People are already seeing results. We're working with folks who are starting up all the way through $20 million per year practices. That's because we're speaking to the core needs, not some fancy tactic of the week. Core needs build you up as an entrepreneur. The last thing I'll say is this is a place where

We are an organization where we focus on teaching you to fish, well also handing you the fish for a short period of time, we're going to show you the templates. But really what we want to do is teach you all the strategies, principles and thinking behind them. So you can build them better for your perfect journey through life and law firm. That's what we're all about.

Kevin Daisey (43:17)
I love that. It's awesome. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah, I was, who was I talking to yesterday? can't remember, but it's like life, not work life balance, but work life rhythm, because we're working all the time. It's going to be part of most of our time and, know, getting that rhythm and really creating the life that you want with your firm that you, you own and making sure that there's a goal is aligned. So, I love it, Charlie.

I really appreciate you sharing today. A lot of cool stuff. but mindset's so important, tapping into this legal community that is out there for all of us, to, get into and, welcomed with open arms and, and you got folks like Charlie who are just taking it to another level where you can join up with them and, and, and get this stuff in practice and start, you know, moving the needle. So I suggest,

Charley Mann (44:10)
Yeah. Awesome. I appreciate you, Kevin.

Kevin Daisey (44:13)
Connect them with Charlie, Charlie on LinkedIn probably is one of the best places to connect with him. Or go to lawfirmalchemy.com or ask me and I'll do an email intro. So yeah, I'll do an email intro to you. Yeah. So, and then, you have a podcast too.

Charley Mann (44:24)
Absolutely. Friends of friends are always welcome.

I do, you're gonna be a guest on it. So the podcast is, They Don't Teach This in Law School. I don't know how many episodes we have at this point, it's a lot, but we've got a great mix of like, bringing on some really cool experts, people like Kevin onto the show, and then some solo episodes where I take a principle and idea that seems to be affecting a lot of say my coaching clients and try and pull it out into the open and break it down, unpack it as the term is.

for the audience in some of the solo shows.

Kevin Daisey (45:04)
I like that, like the dynamic there. So, yeah. So check out his podcast. I got his website. And if you want to intro, let me know and I'll make it happen. So, thank you so much for tuning in. I appreciate you, listening. And if you're having these issues, if you have questions, if you're struggling with things or not sure who to turn to just reach out, comment and, me, Charlie or anyone else in my community will be happy to help. So, let's get out there and, provide good services.

Charley Mann (45:29)
Absolutely.

Kevin Daisey (45:34)
And grow our law firms. So we'll see you soon. Everybody. Peace. Thanks, Charlie.

Charley Mann (45:35)
Alright.

Thank you, Kevin.