Sarah Tuthill-Kveton

if you're not adapting to these things, you're just not going to make it.

Kevin Daisey (00:05)
Hey there everyone. What's up. Welcome to another episode of the managing partners podcast. I'm Kevin Daisy and I'm your host. today I have a really special guest that has a interesting background and her and her husband, had developed some pretty cool things that we're to talk about today and how you can apply that into your business. So we'll be talking about a little bit of AI today, which is obviously a hot topic out there. but first I wanted to mention, my partner with this podcast.

Answering Legal, go check them out. If you're interested to get a free trial, we have a deal with them where you can get 400 free minutes. They'll answer your phone, take your calls and a free trial. If you go to Answeringlegal.com forward slash array, and, just check it out. This is a great company. So Sarah, it's been so good to get to meet you and talk to you, before this show and, excited to have you on today. So welcome.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (01:04)
Thank you, thanks for having me.

Kevin Daisey (01:06)
Yeah. So, interesting background you have. I want to first, you know, we're to be talking about AI and how you're leveraging and all the, the, advantages of it. as well as something that you have developed with your husband, that you're using in your firm. So we'll talk about all those things, but always like to start out with, you telling us, you know, how you became an attorney and what your story is.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (01:30)
Yeah, definitely. So my name is Sarah Tuthill-Kveton. I am a lawyer and practicing in Oregon and Washington. I do lot of insurance defense litigation. I'm a partner at a firm called Chock Barhoum

So that firm started in approximately 2013. I joined in 2015 when it was five lawyers and mostly only in Oregon and it's grown from five lawyers to you know mid-20 lawyers where we are today dominating kind of Oregon and Washington and the assurance defense field, know slip and falls I defend gig workers in the gig economy who gets to that kind of thing mostly all personal injury so I became a lawyer because Like a lot of people my dad

dad

was a lawyer. And so I grew up in a small town where he was kind of a big fish in a small town. I got to see him in litigation. So I thought, hey, that looks fun. You know, I'm going to do that. I knew from fourth grade on that I was going to do it. I actually did a mock trial when I was in fourth grade and got a not guilty verdict for my friend AJ. And so I was kind of hooked after that. And I'm also yet.

Kevin Daisey (02:23)
Hmm.

Awesome. That's really cool.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (02:39)
Sorry, sorry, Kevin. Also, like as you mentioned, my husband has a company called CaseMark and I'm the chief legal officer of CaseMark, which is kind of a fancy way of saying I help consult to build products that us attorneys want to use.

Kevin Daisey (02:55)
Well, yeah. So that thing, you know, that was the interesting thing with you is you're practicing attorney. You work for the firm that you've been at for quite a while and your husband's the tech guy, obviously. And you developed with him kind of a product that is helping you within your firm and now taking it out to prime time to help other law firms. So we'd love to just tell us more about that product and how people can find it, of course.

And then we'll kind of get into some conversations around, you know, how you're using it and the advantages of, of AI. Obviously there's, there's so much talk out there about AI and how people should use it, shouldn't use it. You know, there's fear of it, I think as well. So yeah, tell us more about the, about the, the product and we'll kind of dive into maybe some of those other questions.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (03:46)
Yeah, definitely. So my husband is a serial tech entrepreneur. name is Scott Caviten. AI came out, and he was just fascinated with it. As often as the case with people that are entrepreneurs, something comes out that's kind of in their wheelhouse that they absolutely love. And he said, what are the things that you do in your practice that would be really helpful to have, like summaries or to look at documents?

I said, well, we do a deposition summary after every deposition to secure that information to provide to the client or the adjuster. So it'd be helpful if we could have.

AI do that, and then we could just add on the humanistic impact of the deposition as well. And then also MedCrons and case summaries and different reporting documents for you know, what's been done, what needs to be done, are there records that need to be done, and having AI do that. And he said, Hey, I, think I can do that for you. And turns out he can. So he started with deposition summaries and kind of created those to be specific sort of to personal

But they're expanding to other areas of law and then now he's launching in med crimes in beta testing as of December which is really amazing. So I mean that takes so much time so much labor to do and yeah, I mean as you were saying like there's a lot of skeptics in AI as soon as it came out like one of my law partners I won't say who but he said it's never gonna be a thing and then another ones

Kevin Daisey (05:05)
cool.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (05:24)
saying, it's going to take all of our jobs. And I think neither one of those things is true. But it's evolved tremendously in the last year and a half.

Kevin Daisey (05:28)
you

Yeah. Well, it's, you know, I have, you know, I've met a lot of lawyers that are embraced it and have used it, leveraged it, getting tons of efficiency from it, not replacing anybody, of course. But, if you're not getting on the train, you're going to miss it. And you're just going to help your clients. It's going to help you streamline things, move things forward, get results faster. it, just makes sense. So you got to embrace this stuff and.

figure out how you're gonna use it. If you're not learning how to use it at all, in a few years, you're gonna be just way behind. So it's definitely important to look at how to use it, you know?

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (06:15)
Yeah,

I couldn't agree with you more, Kevin. just a lot of the different.

state bars are putting out task force on how to deal with it. And of the 50 states, 40 of them have a rule that says you have to properly utilize technology and utilizing technology isn't running from it, it's actually using it for the efficiency of your clients in order to provide the services. it's your right. it's not just, you know, the train has left the station, it's like a high speed moving train. So you have to get on now. And, you know, I think

Kevin Daisey (06:47)
Yeah

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (06:52)
I

attorneys have like a hard time conceptualizing what that's going to look like for them and how in their office it will look. you know, for example, if you just even use like Lexis or Westlaw, they've got really cool tools that say, know, draft me a complaint on premise liability in Oregon. And I did that. It's amazing. Or draft me of argument as to why these documents are discoverable under these facts. And of course, like anything, you have to check the citations.

practicing based on Google before and just copy and pasting, probably weren't doing that great of a job anyways. it's just a jumping off place to get to the answer so much faster. so mean, that's just one I, know, AI can check your grammar, AI can help for your billing software.

Kevin Daisey (07:22)
Sure.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (07:43)
There's AI companies like CaseMark that streamline your litigation process from beginning to end. I there's so much out there to be utilized.

Kevin Daisey (07:52)
Yeah, one of the things that we talked pre-recording is that too, we'd like turnover. So if you have an associate or an attorney leave, how I can help fill the gap there and bridge the gap, guess, where they left off, what they were doing. Keep track of those things.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (08:09)
Yeah.

Absolutely. one of the, you know, I you have a lot of really amazing managing partners that come on the podcast and have talked about how, you know, to prevent turnover, what you can do as a managing partner to do that. And I will say that in the last 10 years, turnover has been higher and people working tenure in companies just across the board in every single profession has gone down significantly. And of course that has to do with economic factors like the pandemic. It has to do with, you

know, employee satisfaction, and then also just the fluidity of the current market as to be able to get different jobs because it's booming. although we, you know, as partners, maybe take it personal, there's a lot that goes into it that isn't happening before before in the last 10 years is changing. So we also have to adapt to that and can't take it so personally. And one of the ways you can do that is by using AI, like I think we've all had the experience where an associate is halfway out the

door. Maybe their files are not exactly what you would have hoped them to be. So you can, you know, run a case summary report that says

here are the depositions that we're taking. Here's what needs to be done. Here are the medical records that's provided. Here's what needs to continue to be requested. Here are the pleadings, the motions have been filed, what's in those documents. So you as a managing partner or a supervisor or even a supervising paralegal can pick up that file and figure out exactly where it left off. And that's kind of like for a caseload, I would also say is,

I would imagine that plaintiffs law firms have a really hard time keeping people in their firm developing demand letters and getting those demand letters out. And so you could have a bunch of clients that have come in that you've spent a long time trying to earn. And then if you don't have those demand letters getting out, you don't have that money flowing through the door. And a lot of those demand letters have to do with what are the medical records say, you what else needs to be obtained. So you can send out more.

you can bring in more income with less people than before.

Kevin Daisey (10:24)
No, a hundred percent. think, back to what you're saying about, you know, losing people or whatever. I hate it every time. And it's, we've had some amazing people, you know, leave and it's going to happen. it's, know, just bet on it. It's especially if you grow and scale, it's going to happen to me more often. So, you know, I hate it every time. It's been something I've had to deal with since I've started my business. but it's usually for the better.

And you know, but it's just gonna happen. So how are you gonna prepare for that? How are you gonna mitigate that and make it as smooth as possible? And it sounds like AI can be a big help for that. So that's pretty cool. I never thought about that actually.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (11:02)
Yeah,

and as you know, Kevin, it's turnover can be one of the most expensive parts of running a firm, getting people up to speed, having that lag time, not getting stuff out the door. So if you can cut that down, then you don't have that problem.

It's, you one problem creates a solution. So hopefully with that rapid turnover and the things that are happening just in our current economy, it will help a ton taking down on that lag time.

Kevin Daisey (11:31)
Yeah. then, know, response time intake, you know, with us, we do marketing. So, you know, there's how you respond to leads, how fast you responding to a chat or a text or email or whatever, however they're coming through. And then what's the follow-up like, you know, there's client experience. There's so many things out there, messaging apps and AI, and there's, there's all these little pieces out there, that I think, you know, law firms can, can definitely take advantage up.

It's, and in some cases not replace people, but you know, you need some things to be like, Hey, it's a Saturday. We're not available. Like how are we taking care of a lead that comes through? and it doesn't stop there. It's getting the demands letters out. It's a lot more that has to go into it. So while, you know, some offers like, Hey, let's spend more marketing and advertising. That just creates more problems down the line. Like how are you handling efficiencies and your client experience and intake and follow up.

Like there's so much more that stops after I give you a lead, right? So, I'm always trying to get my law firms that are clients like, you got to improve these things. Like there's bottlenecks, there's problems. we can't just market more and fix that. So.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (12:44)
Absolutely. I mean, if you think about it from a perspective to like, once you land that client, and you want to keep that client to get a referral, or you don't want you want them to have confidence as you as an attorney, go, you know, having all of that data to pop an remediation statement where you're to get a higher settlement because you've done the research, you've looked into these things, you've prepared your client on you know, what to expect based on the mediation statement, like you're just going to get

better results and from a defense perspective, if you're not using these things, you're simply going to be falling behind.

Kevin Daisey (13:15)
Sure, mean, a lot of these plan firms are on the cutting edge of stuff. And I see more of them at these conferences and more of them out trying to learn this stuff. So yeah, they're going to have an advantage to some degree if you're not, the defense firms aren't keeping up with it.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (13:34)
You bring up like such a good point too, because it is the plaintiffs firm is going to start using it first. And then it's going to be inundating the adjusters, the defense side, and it's going to have to be adapted. And I think a lot of people from the defense perspective think, my gosh.

Kevin Daisey (13:42)
you

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (13:51)
we're going to be losing all these man hours and these billables. But when you have a market that's super tight to hire people, you have what we call hours on the shelf, right? Hours that could be billed that aren't being billed because you can't get to it. So the volume of cases is bound to go up. The amount of work is bound to go up and you simply need to find a way to manage that work in an efficient way. And from the defense perspective, it's only a matter of time until the clients require certain

vendors be used for AI or certain processes be in your office for the use of AI.

Kevin Daisey (14:27)
Well, you made a good point and I heard this maybe at a conference or that, but that, it says that you need to be leveraging technology. so it's like, you know, it's, you should be doing that as a firm. Like you should be looking to improve the experience and efficiency is, by leveraging technology. And I thought that was interesting versus like thinking the bar would stay away from that kind of stuff a little bit more. So I thought that was very interesting that.

That's what's been put out there. So yeah, so you need to be doing this to stay up to speed.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (14:59)
Yeah.

The New York task force put out a paper on this and they said, here's what we recommend. And I think they said, a refusal to use technology that makes legal work more accurate and efficient may be considered a refusal to provide competent legal services to clients.

I'm in the New York bar and I think the California bar was some of the top two ones that were issued first. And so I would anticipate that the other the others are soon to follow. I mean, I had an attorney tell my paralegal the other day that he doesn't accept service via email on thing, you know, like routine stuff. And my thought was processed like, well, give it a year, he'll be retired, which is true. Because if you're not adapting to these stuff, you're just not going

to make it.

Kevin Daisey (15:51)
Yeah. Again, if you're about to retire, you're on your way out. Maybe, maybe you don't have to embrace all this stuff. don't know. But, but are you leaving that firm behind? You have employees that are going to be taking it over. If so, you're not doing them a very good service. So, you know, you need to start adapting for sure. So, but if it's just you and you're going to hang it up. Maybe, but I don't think those people are listening to my podcast. Yeah.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (15:58)
Right.

No, definitely not. They're probably

listening to the radio, which is fine. Still good. I love my, you know, some some radio, but yeah, I agree.

Kevin Daisey (16:27)
Yeah,

my listeners are on a different level. So appreciate you tuning in. My listeners are like Sarah pretty much. So.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (16:32)
right. Absolutely.

Yeah, entrepreneurs,

managing firms, growing their businesses, love that.

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Kevin Daisey (18:04)
yeah, I mean, so when it comes to all this stuff, you need to be implementing technology and you need to be testing it. You don't have to like just go all in, but you need to be testing it. need to be having quarterly meetings to like say, what are we doing? What are we not utilizing? Where can we get efficiencies and getting your staff involved to

you know, bring these things to the table. How are they going to use it and leverage it? I wanted to know more, I guess, Sarah, about your all's actual product. So Casemark, this is casemark.com, right? Tell us a little bit, you know, some of the main features that you all have currently and how, how someone could, could use that.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (18:36)
That's right.

Yeah, so the overall vision as products are unveiled is to have sort of an easy button from beginning to end. And so from intake, getting the client in, organizing the information, all the way to litigation, trial summaries to be used for appellate procedures, so that kind of thing. So currently we have deposition summaries, we have trial and hearing summaries, and the deposition summaries can come in the form of.

narratives, page line summary. So it's kind of choose your own adventure because for me, I'm going to use a page line summary at a trial. I'm going to use a narrative more for my clients and then add in my perspective to that narrative. So it just really depends on what it is that you're looking for. But those types of things, they're going to start doing tax documents. So you get a tax return in for someone. is their income? Is it a business income? So you can chart that.

summaries of that. Now they're launching MedCrons in December and actually they're doing a deal where MedCrons and you know this blows my mind but.

are going to be free for the month of December. guess they chose a month where litigation is a little bit slower. But yeah, so free for the month of December, there's assets you provide the feedback with the summary if you want it to be different. They also will do things like brand your AI products. So if you have a MedCron that you need to be branded with your logo, they can do that. There's some white labeling that's happening too for different products. But yeah, there's eventually it's going to be from beginning to end.

And if you think about the, you're like, why do I need a daily maybe hearing summary or a trial transcript? We've all been in that situation where you attend the trial or attend the hearing and then afterwards there might be some dispute after the fact what was in the hearing. Do you need to report back to your client about it or it was a two hour hearing and you're not going to remember completely all of the details or a trial transcript you're preparing for the next day of trial you need to update.

your client on a summary as to what had happened that day. You are preparing for closing arguments. I mean, in litigation, there's a lot of different uses to consolidate all that information. So that's kind of where we're starting. And I anticipate it's going to be even better. The case summaries, hopefully, we'll be launching soon, which takes all that information that we were talking about for turnovers, summarizes it to tell you exactly where they're at in a case.

So that's what we're doing with CaseMark and always taking ideas as to what different attorneys need for their practice, crafting that and putting it out as for use.

Kevin Daisey (21:27)
That's really cool. So appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. If you're listening right now and you're watching this live, wherever you may be seeing it on YouTube or LinkedIn or wherever, drop a comment. You could tag Sarah or me and see if you've got any questions about AI or her product that her husband's building. I think the cool dynamic thing here is that you're using it and then you're like, you can go home and say, Hey, it'd be nice if it had this or change this. So that's

So you're not just doing that separately. You're literally using it within your, your own practice. So I think that's pretty unique.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (22:03)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm a litigator first. I run my own firm. That's my number one job. And then this is just something that my husband created. He's knocking out of the park with building this product so that I can do my job better. And other people tend to want it as well. So it's pretty awesome. Yeah, right. Totally.

Kevin Daisey (22:22)
The win-win right there. I love it.

And so it's casemark.com. Right? Pretty sure. I was at the site.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (22:28)
Mm-hmm. Yep. And then we're on,

you can find them on LinkedIn too, Casemark's on LinkedIn. You know, the, but yeah, casemark.com, check out their deals in December, which are going to be kind of amazing. Give them all the feedback you want, what you liked, what you didn't like. And that'd be great. I know that one of the things that they're going to do specifically is take like the personal injury MedCron and try to focus one towards more MedMal.

cases. So if that's something that you're interested in, that might be a good place to start.

Kevin Daisey (23:01)
That was awesome, I love it. The power couple here taking over the whole industry. How can people, I mean my guests, I'm sorry my guests, my listeners connect with you? What's the best way?

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (23:07)
I guess.

you

can always email me at sarah at chocbargroom.com and then you can follow me on my LinkedIn page but and that's how you can find me.

Kevin Daisey (23:26)
Yeah, I'm mostly on LinkedIn too. I'm on Instagram and Facebook. Facebook's more personal. LinkedIn, I, you know, all business. So that's where this podcast will be posted at as well. But, but yeah, that's where I tend to, from a business standpoint, best place to connect with me as well. But yeah, check Sarah out, follow her again. you, for some reason can't find her, ask me, I'll connect you by email, introduction. if you're interested in connecting with the software, I'm sure we can range, connect you with her husband.

So anything you all need, please let me know, ask any questions. and I was always, always looking to bring the best content, ideas, and information to everybody. So if you have any questions or episodes you'd like to see covered, guests you recommend seeing for you, Sarah, you know, anyone you feel would be awesome on the show. Always, always looking for awesome people. So, like yourself. So I appreciate you coming on today.

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (24:20)
Thank you for having me, Kevin. It's been awesome chatting with you.

Kevin Daisey (24:23)
You as well. Anything you want to add or say before we roll?

Sarah Tuthill-Kveton (24:27)
No, just don't be afraid of it. That's all I gotta say is try it out. What works for you? There's gonna be different things for different people, but don't be afraid. Do your research, figure it out, and it's gonna help you tenfold. I mean, you might be busy now, but you're gonna be busy in the future if you're not quite grasping how to use it.

Kevin Daisey (24:47)
So use AI, learn it, leverage it. Don't be afraid of it or you're going to be left behind. So that's a common theme. So I love it. Thank you so much, Sarah. And we'll talk to you all soon. Thank you everybody for joining and we'll see you on the next episode.