Kerri White

Kerri Coby White (00:00)
clicks aren't clients. And so if you want to be recognized as being good in marketing, then you absolutely have to be good at intake.

Kevin Daisey (00:09)
Hey, what's up everyone. Welcome to the managing partners podcast. today we have a really cool guest who I've enjoyed, getting to know, but also learning some stuff from, and, she's got a lot of cool stuff to share with you today. So my law firm owners out there listening. Intake is the theme today and how important that is. I talk about it all the time as a marketer. Obviously it's super important, that our clients and lawyers and law firms.

take that seriously and it's an ever improving thing that you need to be working on. So, Kerri Coby White's here and I'm excited for her to dive into, intake and data. talk in AI, as in regards to that as well. I want to kick off things real quick. I just mentioned my friends over at Answering Legal, they do call and they take intake and they do our calls for array digital.

And, uh, work with a lot of our clients, but, uh, just want to mention them. Thanks for being a sponsor of the podcast and carry it. Let's take it over to you and tell us your story. Yeah.

Kerri Coby White (01:16)
Thank you, Kevin. Yeah,

well, I think you nailed it pretty much. If you're in marketing, you have to have a love affair with intake because as I always remind my marketing friends, clicks aren't clients. And so if you want to be recognized as being good in marketing, then you absolutely have to be good at intake.

Making the phone's ring just isn't enough. And in the environment that we're in where the calls are high, the margins are tight, competition is fierce, you've

got to be aggressively on top of intake if you want to be able to justify the high cost of marketing.

Kevin Daisey (01:50)
spot on, mean, I was just talking to a client yesterday. That's a newer client. That's. Pitting, you know, just getting into PI never were before some laws change, kind of cutting them off at the legs on the other legal service they provide. It's a very tough challenge in place to get into, especially in the location that they're at. And for them just getting a lead right now, um, is important for them. Yeah.

Kerri Coby White (01:51)
Yeah.

Mmm.

yeah, it's hard. And I

think when you look at the cost of entry, if you don't have the reputation already built up, it's steep. But if you're good at intake, you can justify those calls. If you aren't really taking care of intake, it can quickly escalate to the point where it's no longer an effective business development strategy to be invested in online marketing.

When people talk to me because they're excited about growing the law firm and obviously marketing is a lot sexier to talk about than intake, they're excited to get out there and turn that nozzle and make the leads flow. But the reality is that if you're not ready for it, you could be spending a lot of money very quickly without the results you want. So step number one, if you're thinking about heavily investing in marketing or investing at all in marketing, you want to make sure your intake is tidy.

Kevin Daisey (03:13)
Yeah, spot on. And I, I just example that one firm because, they missed like a lead and for them again, getting a lead in PI where they've never done it before is like super important. So it's like under a microscope versus what I see problems with firms that get a lot of activity. There's a lot more problems because they, they are getting some leads, they are converting some cases, but they're missing out on so much. And there's a lot of holes in the bucket. Right. So.

Kerri Coby White (03:43)
Absolutely.

Kevin Daisey (03:43)
to me, yeah, marketing can be more sexy, but I think the magic happens at the end take. And that's where the excitement part is, I think.

Kerri Coby White (03:49)
absolutely. Well, and that's

where I feel like as a consultant, you have the most control. can, I really can't control the quality of the leads. The marketing team is going to have to work on that. But when somebody sits down with me and we look at their numbers and I see where I can affect change.

Kevin Daisey (04:00)
Yeah

Kerri Coby White (04:09)
It's going to be in the call handling tactics. It's going to be in the lead response time. It's going to be in the engaged in getting more of those leads engaged. So if you're looking for where you're losing leads, really studying that process from a lead hitting your pipeline to a retained client at the end of it, you're looking for every jump off point where you can lose that client and filling the gap, putting a safety net under it, capturing those leaks in the bucket and filling it in.

And if you do that, then you really can justify the cost of marketing and you see how many firms it works well for. But you made such a great point in looking at the differences of those large firms that are doing a lot of marketing and the phone's ringing off the hook. They have a totally different set of problems than the firm that is just trying to get that one call. I talked to a lot of firms who were eight to 10 cases a month, and eight to 10 cases a month is still a good business.

I almost feel bad for those intake teams. They're a little nervous every time the phone rings because they're not putting in the reps. And so I know you mentioned AI. One of the tools that we're working on is an interactive AI tool where the intake team can practice taking calls because we want to make sure that you're not going in blind to talking to these prospects before you really know your stuff. So we need to practice the skills like anything else.

Kevin Daisey (05:12)
Ha ha.

Kerri Coby White (05:33)
and coaching and feedback and improvement so that we know that when the real leads come in that we're gonna have the chops to close them.

Kevin Daisey (05:40)
That's really cool right there. I've never even heard of that before. but no, it's your point. know, if you're waiting on that one call and you miss it or, know, you're not available because well, the smaller firms too, they're, they're doing a lot of things. You know, you, everyone's a generalist and they're, they're picking up a lot of balls. So, and I think there's two, there's, there's a different sophistication of intake. So it's like, on one hand, it's like, well, we have a chat and bot and we have a phone system and we have this and we have that.

Kerri Coby White (05:42)
It is, I know, it's very exciting.

God forbid. I know. Yeah. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Daisey (06:09)
And it's more of the, the tactics of how you're intercepting, but then there's sophistication side of things of like, well, how are you answering the phone? Empathy, talking to the person on the other side. How's your team trained, your culture, how that comes through on the other side. So it's, there's different levels. I feel like of intake success. You know what I mean?

Kerri Coby White (06:24)
lately.

Completely. Yeah, well,

and Kevin, even the fact that you're saying different levels, like how leads are coming to you is even one of the big challenges that intake teams face. If someone's coming to you, stop and think for a minute about what they're calling for. And I can almost guarantee they're not calling to complete an intake. So even the language around intake has to change if you're going to be really good at it.

95 % of the folks calling a law firm never have done that before. And 100 % of the folks who are calling your law firm aren't having a very good day. If they're calling you, something has gone wrong. And so if we want to be effective on the phone, we have to have a very different approach than if we're answering calls at a pizza place. We know they're calling because they're hungry and they're going to order a pizza if we have what they're looking for. That's just not the scenario that we're in. And so we have to approach intake in a very

aware state of what our clients are facing when they call, what they need, and what we have to give them before we can reliably offer them an intake. So I think we have to shift our understanding of, and like I said, I hate the word intake, we have to shift our understanding of what we're doing when we pick up the phone if we want to be effective. And you know, something else you said there though about the generalist and wearing lots of hats and

Kevin Daisey (07:50)
you

Kerri Coby White (07:59)
If you're a smaller law firm listening to this, think one of the things that you have to do when it comes to culture is sell your team on the idea of growth. I think for every firm that everyone feels so busy, we're all so busy, so busy, the idea of growth, we want more more and more often really rubs employees the wrong way, but they have to understand that the way we keep our systems up to date.

the increases in rent, keeping the lights on and being able to invest in technology that may seem nice now but becomes necessary a year from now. A growing firm has the ability to invest in things that may seem unnecessary to the employee but very, very necessary to the success of the business and employing those folks long-term. So if you're in a smaller firm, you have to think about how you sell.

growth to your team. And one of the things that you can certainly sell them on is that, you know, if we if we're successful at growing this practice, we don't all have to do everything. We can specialize. You know, I can't have eight employees who all do one thing and spend, you know, 40 percent of their day looking at each other. We have to be strategic in the use of our human capital. But that's one of the benefits of having a growing firm,

Kevin Daisey (09:09)
you

Array Digital (09:25)
Today's episode is brought to you by Answering Legal. Now I just switched my company Array Digital over to Answering Legal. And it's made my life a whole lot easier. If I can't get it to the phone, there are 24 seven virtual receptionists take the call and take them through a full intake process. So we never miss new business again. Now, Answering Legal has been at this for more than a decade.

and they specialize in answering phone calls for law firms like yours. They even have a brand new, easy to use app and they integrate with all the top legal softwares and platforms. So for my listeners today, we actually have a special deal of a 400 minute free trial offer of Answering Legal services that you can try out by going to answeringlegal.com forward slash array. You can also call

631-437-4803 and use special code DAISEY. That's my last name. D-A-I-S-E-Y. So go check them out and let's get back to the show.

Kevin Daisey (10:43)
like my agencies, like we, we have that mindset of growth and growing and it's built into our culture. But at first me and my partner didn't do a good job of explaining that because it looked more of a, a monetary kind of gain. And so, you know, as you're bringing people into your law firm, anyone listening, like they should come in knowing, Hey, we're growing this thing and here's where we're going. And here's why. And they want to be part of that.

Kerri Coby White (10:56)
Yeah, it's like a money grab, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kevin Daisey (11:10)
And

if you want it, you know, I've had an intern that was here now leading teams, right? So opportunity, I can't give you more opportunity if we stay stagnant. You can't hire an assistant, right? You can't get that software you want. Yeah.

Kerri Coby White (11:17)
Yes.

Absolutely. Opportunity, stability,

yeah. mean, all the things that will make us a stronger organization begin with growth.

Kevin Daisey (11:31)
Yeah, safety, right? Insurance, healthcare, whatever it is that they really care about.

Kerri Coby White (11:35)
Or even

as business owners, last summer I was out of commission for three weeks. If you are a teeny tiny little firm where everything hinges on you, three weeks is an awful long time to be away from your business. And so as you plan for growth and selling your team on the idea of being a growing firm,

There's a lot in it for them, but you do have to sell it. It does have to be part of your culture.

Kevin Daisey (12:06)
Yeah. And then, know, another way to do that. And then we're talking, you know, but it's important. get the car, the culture and how your people answer the phone and care. Like they have to be bought into your firm and where you're going and love being there. They have to have what I call is mental ownership of your company. They don't have physical ownership, but they have mental ownership where they protect it and they protect the culture. And that'll come through on the phone or whatever else they're doing. But

Kerri Coby White (12:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

Well,

it does. Yeah. One of my mentors, Ken Hardison, you may know him from PILMMA but he actually said, you know, keep a mirror in front of your intake team and make them smile at themselves. You know, it's a lot easier talking to a person. And I tell my trainees that all the time. it's cameras on for everyone because I do not need to sit in a room by myself talking to myself for an hour. I need eyeballs. need I need smiles. you know, engaging the team is part of

Kevin Daisey (12:39)
Ken's the man,

Kerri Coby White (13:03)
that culture. The other thing I noticed with one of the most successful intake teams I work with, their job is split between being in the office and being out in the field literally calling on prospects physically in person. And I think part of their success is that they're not just stuck in an office all day answering calls, never seeing eyeballs. They're really in front of people and they're seeing the relief that comes to that prospect when they're able to solve their problem and take the next step.

So, you I think we have to, again, go back to this idea that nobody calls a law firm because they're having a good day. And if your intake team is specialized and all they're doing is intake, intake, intake, it can be rather grueling to take on other people's burdens all day, never see a smiling face and just hear these sad stories, whether it's criminal, divorce, immigration fears, personal injuries, you no matter what kind of law you're practicing.

Unless you are calling to learn about how to protect your lottery ticket, nobody calls a law firm because they're having a good day.

Kevin Daisey (14:04)
you

Yes, so true. yeah, so it can't be robotic or just process step, step, step, step. There's got to be some, again, empathy there and your team's got to be trained on it.

Kerri Coby White (14:16)
Absolutely. Well, and let's take that

to a very tactical strategy. Like talk to your intake team. Like guys, before the phone rings, like center yourself for a minute, blow some air through your lips and get ready to be human. Because, you know, I listened to this call once. I'll never forget this. Somebody called a law firm. The receptionist answered it. The gentleman said, my son was killed in a car accident, which is about as tragic a line as I can imagine.

You're talking about a parent of a deceased child. I don't care whether that's an adult child or a young child. It's somebody's child. And the receptionist responded with, and your name, please. And I was so taken aback by it. Like I literally had to pick my chin up off my desk. And I started reminding my trainees that if you take this conversation you're having and put it

Kevin Daisey (14:58)
Hmm.

Kerri Coby White (15:13)
in line at the grocery store or sitting on a couch in a coffee shop and someone turns to you and says, my son was killed in a car accident. What's your next line going to be in any other human engagement? It certainly isn't going to be end your name, please. No. So we have to put on our humanity. And again, you know, when we look at all the ways AI can and should be supporting firms, having people engaged with other humans is where we're going to have to

Kevin Daisey (15:32)
That's crazy.

Kerri Coby White (15:43)
best position them. AI agents, call agents, AI call answering services are a thing. You can check them out. And I couldn't recommend them. don't like it. I know there are firms that are starting to use them to book that initial appointment. But I think we always have to go back to this idea of what we do and why we do it. At the end of the day, a law firm is a service solving problems for people.

Kevin Daisey (15:58)
Thank

Kerri Coby White (16:12)
who have problems. And so we do have to be mindful of the fact that not only are we there to serve, this is a service industry, but we're making good money doing it. For all the industries out there, know what the margin, I certainly know that the margins have shrunk, but it's still a good living and we have to be service first in every interaction. So have your best people, make sure you're spending what it takes to have emotionally intelligent people on the phone who

aren't going to be stuck on some script, but be very human and empathetic in their response. And smart, you know, I'm always asked on panels, you what do I look for when I hire for intake? I look for smart people because people who are smart emotionally, intellectually, strategically, often know how to finesse these conversations in a way that brings the prospect to the natural conclusion that they need to hire your law firm.

And I think that those are the people that may be worth the extra cost of having them on your team and find ways to really keep those smart people engaged with you.

Kevin Daisey (17:24)
Yeah. I mean, to your point, instead of following the exact script, it's, you know, being able to pivot, pivot to the situation and really understand it. And, you know, I, couldn't imagine if I had like AI, anything trying to. So, know, sell a law firm on why they should hire us. would, you know, it's like, it would never work.

Kerri Coby White (17:27)
I hate scripts. Yeah.

It pisses me off, quite frankly. That

is one place I don't want to see AI at work. Now that said, there's a lot you can do. When I'm looking at a law firm's intake optimization, taking that initial assessment of how are they set up, having a chat bot on your website, people are very used to interacting with chat bots. They're not yet used to talking to bots.

And I do have use cases where we are talking about, but not for something as important as signing a client. Let people self-serve to their heart's content, but if they reach out to you, gosh darn it, answer the phone. Just think about how frustrated we've all been over the years. We accept that you're going to get automated messaging, press one for this, press two for that, even these talking bots that we've been used to for years on

with large organizations like Verizon or Capital One. We're used to that, but it doesn't mean we like it. And we certainly expect a lot more from a law firm making a third of a third. Or excuse me, making a third.

Kevin Daisey (18:51)
absolutely. So yeah, yeah.

And it's, yeah. So it's, it's a big decision. You're in a bad spot, maybe the worst day of your life, depending on what you're calling about. So there's, and you can just, you can call the next firm. If you have a bad experience, you don't feel right about it. And these folks, like you said, they'd, they'd never hired a firm probably ever. they're based on other experiences that they've had.

Kerri Coby White (19:06)
completely.

Kevin Daisey (19:19)
whether they have a good experience with their doctor's office and they get taken care of, then they call a law firm and it's completely the opposite in a bad situation. They'll just go to the next firm.

Kerri Coby White (19:30)
Right. And they're used to service on demand. We expect to be responded to immediately in real time. yeah, there's very little loyalty. Unless there's someone really worth waiting for, they're moving on. They're moving on. So making sure that you have that team set up to catch, pivot, move, you got to get them going. And then your friends over at Answering Legal picking up where you can't. It's critically important, too.

Kevin Daisey (20:00)
Yeah. Well, you know, I guess that's why I was kind of saying like the, the different levels, right? So one, someone's got to answer the phone. So it has something in place and that's that your smaller firms are just too busy to answer the phone. The lawyer, the lawyer's running around. You got to get something in place. and, then you need to work on improving that and you need to work on the quality of, of that, what you can afford. and so it's, it's work and you got to build that up, but,

Kerri Coby White (20:28)
Yeah, and you

got to open your ears. I mean, you got to listen to the calls to know what you need to work on. I think ignorance is bliss for a lot of attorneys. But back to Ken Hardison, he said he sat with an attorney once and he made him listen to his calls for the first time. And the gentleman actually got up and was physically ill after listening to his calls. And I have to say, I'm in intake and I have the same reaction when I listen to my team sometimes. It's like, know how you want it to go. And then I.

and to some of my folks talking to prospects for my business. And I'm like, guys, come on. And feedback is the breakfast of champions, right? If we want to improve, we need to be open to hearing constructive criticism. So I think it's important that we get the team used to the fact that calls are recorded. We review them. We share them as a team. We critique each other. We provide feedback. And we try again. Test, iterate, optimize. That's the marketing way, isn't it?

Kevin Daisey (21:24)
That's it right there. got to constantly do that. So actually when I got before we started recording this episode, was, Kerri was actually listening to intake calls

Kerri Coby White (21:34)
Yes,

that's what I do. That's what I do for fun, Kevin, don't you? Doesn't everybody sit around listening to intake calls? Yeah, yeah, feedback, breakfast of champions, breakfast of champions. So that would be my first advice to everyone listening, listen to your calls. And honestly, if you're a managing partner that is in a firm that is not consumer-based even, you're dealing with, you need to hear your people on the phone. I tell, same way I tell my kids, they're out there wearing the family.

Kevin Daisey (21:38)
I know. I love it. First thing I do when I get up in the morning is listen to those.

Yeah, but-

Kerri Coby White (22:02)
uniform every day of their life by virtue of that last name. Everyone working in your organization is wearing your team jersey. They need to represent you well. Listen to how your people interact with your clients. Yeah, because this doesn't end at intake. And when I work with firms, I tell them, look, we are going to polish up intake, but you better make sure that the next stage of the engagement when they move on to legal services, that they are every bit as responsive and empathetic and kind. Because if you have this

Wonderful intake experience and then they absolutely piss you off on day one of being a client. that's a bad look. I mean, we've all had that experience where we've gotten the hard sell in the, you know, the used car lot and then you drive a jalopy out and the guy never wants to hear from you again. You can't have good intake followed by lousy client service. You just can't.

Kevin Daisey (22:42)
man.

a hundred percent. mean, that's always been, I've had that issue in the past with agencies, you know, as the owner, you set, you know, meet a client, you sell them and also then team drops the ball or something happens where projects didn't get scheduled or, know, there's so many things that can happen. So yeah, it, for me, that's what I say all the time. Your marketing is not like what you hire us to do. Your marketing is everything, every person inside and out of your, of your company.

Kerri Coby White (23:05)
That's painful.

Kevin Daisey (23:21)
So how they talk, how they represent you out in public, how they answer the phone, how they do the service, all things in your company, everything about it that is your marketing. Like that's the experience people have when they come out the other side. Are they going to talk about you? Are they going to give you a review, testimonial? Like that's how you're representing yourself in the market.

Kerri Coby White (23:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and that's,

it speaks directly to brand. know, we're just coming off the Super Bowl where, we're in a political environment as ever. And some footballers were asked about some political commentary and there were pundits on both sides, not too happy with the milk toast responses. And anybody who knows anything about brand knows that they're wearing the Jersey.

you're no longer just representing yourself. So if you're wearing my company jersey or your law firm jersey, you got to play the part. And if you're going to carry that out into the world, all the better, but just do it with pride. Be proud to wear that jersey, fly the flag and sell your business out in the world. But just know that you are representing more than yourself. I mean, I literally can hear myself. This is how I.

Talk to my students 20 years ago as a teacher, you you take them on a field trip and they're all wearing the school t-shirt and you're like, for the love of God, we are representing the entire school when we're out here. That's how I feel every time my kids leave the house. You are the best reflection of us as a family. So wear the Jersey with pride and make us proud.

Kevin Daisey (24:41)
Yeah.

Well, I think that's why I'm a parent. Of course, you can get mad and frustrated at maybe basic things or whatever, but if kids acting up, right. It's like, you're not thinking, Hey, my kid's just doing something. And that, but it's like reflective on the whole family,

Kerri Coby White (25:06)
Oh, completely.

no, trust me, they're never judging the kid. They're judging the parent. Yeah, no, they're totally judging the parent. so, I mean, think about that as a managing partner, you have this polished image and then your legal assistant is sending a grammatically incorrect email. It's cringy. So we have to be aware that we are representatives of the organization from the second that phone call comes in to before that, experience on your website, their interaction with your firm online.

Kevin Daisey (25:09)
Why are you acting like this?

Kerri Coby White (25:36)
That's all painting a picture of who you are. And it's one of my favorite sayings about brand is, you define your brand, or it will be designed by default. So by design or by default, I'd rather own it completely. know who you are, why you do what you do, what makes you who you are. I consider that one of the four fundamentals I talk about when it comes to growing a law firm. It's very hard to stand out as a legal service provider.

to a large extent has been commoditized. We thankfully don't differentiate very much. I'm actually pleased to see that there isn't a race to the bottom on fees. People are generally upholding the professional fee structure. But how are you going to differentiate yourself? And I think it's going to be by the humans you employ and the relationships that they build as members of your firm. And so if that is ultimately your brand, make clear what your expectations are from that.

website experience to your call handling experience to your onboarding experience. All of that is telling the entire world who you are and how you operate because no matter what they're going to go online and tell people about it. So you better make it good.

Kevin Daisey (26:46)
Spot on. love everything you just said. And I think too, you know, as a leader of your law firm, are you communicating that to your staff, your employees? Like, are they on the same page with all that stuff? Are you just hoping they want to represent you well?

Kerri Coby White (27:00)
Yeah, again, by design or by default. So, you know, this

is no different than parenting again. Lead by example, practice what you preach, and then make known your intentions. We can't just hope and pray these things happen. Like we actually have to train our team. You know, I've been saying this really since the pandemic now. You know, we were talking about, you know, this next generation of employees, these kids, you know, they're phone obsessed, they're social media obsessed, they're lazy, they're entitled, and...

this is the generation we've inherited. So for whatever reason, if we think humans are different than they used to be, we have a responsibility to mentor them and train them and bring them up to stuff. And as my kids are teetering on adulthood, and I do worry that this whole generation is a little different and it is gonna require more of us as employers.

to make sure that we are driving their full potential, no different than we do as a parent. These kids have had a lot of convenience at their fingertips. They're not as accustomed to hard work as generations past. So we have to take that responsibility. So like I said, it doesn't matter why, we can blame it on COVID, blame it on phones or social media, whatever it may be. This is the generation that we're responsible for developing into professionals and leaders in our firm. So.

take the time to train them, invest in them. And then the simplest thing I'm gonna tell you is to talk to them. Have group lunches, start a firm book group every month, pick a business book that is good for the culture of your firm. I have favorites I'm happy to share, but you have to talk to these people. And I think one of the saddest realities of this moment in time is that we actually, for all the insane communication going on online,

There's less human interaction than ever. And so we have to make a point of really talking to the people who work in our organizations and helping them be compassionate, communicative, collaborative humans.

Kevin Daisey (29:03)
Yeah, spot on. And, um, one of the things I going to say, so they're not only going to be working for you and leading your company at some point, uh, they're also your clients, right? At some point. looking in the future. Um, so yeah, there's nothing you got to be able to work with these folks. and honestly, I have a lot of young folks here and some you they act like Gen Xers. Like, so it's just.

Kerri Coby White (29:15)
Yes.

Yeah,

I love that.

Kevin Daisey (29:31)
It's not

all it's not across the board for sure. There's some amazing young folks that yeah.

Kerri Coby White (29:34)
No, it isn't. And that's

why hiring well is really important. And that's a question people ask me about with intake all the time. What am I looking for in hiring? One of the assessments I complete with new hires and intake is assessing the ego and empathy drive. It's a training model I was exposed to many years ago that is really relevant in law firm intake.

The ego is your desire to do well for yourself. That's motivation and attitude and that drive to achieve things. Empathy is your ability to suffer with someone else and want to bring you both through to the other side of it. And when you're hiring for intake, we need to find people who are high on both empathy and ego drives. That they are these bleeding hearts who want to help someone on this very bad day that they called your law firm.

but they also want to hit the numbers and they want to see the conversion rate up and they want to be the one who didn't have a single lost case this month. So try to find those people. There's an acronym I was exposed to called CAMPS, character, attitude, motivation, personality, and last on that list is skills because we can train for skills and you must, but all those other things are really baked into who we hire.

So hire well, invest in these people, train them up and spend time with them.

Kevin Daisey (31:03)
Yeah. Good, good advice right there. And I for a couple of things you mentioned, so one, my business partner, he's, we have a book club every month here. Uh, that everyone in the whole company can opt in or not. have like a sheet. So, and some people opt in for some books and some for not, but, and we have, uh, calls in the evenings once a week and cover chapters and stuff like that. So that's pretty cool. Um,

Kerri Coby White (31:11)
Excellent. Love that.

Aw, see? There wouldn't be any

beverages on those calls, would there be? No. You would never do such a thing. I can't imagine why else you would be having a meeting at night.

Kevin Daisey (31:28)
I mean, I wouldn't do that.

doing like six o'clock. So yeah, it could be, it could be something happening there. We actually have happy hours too for, um, for other, for some of our teams that opt in for that too. But one of the things too, I think, you know, with, with your folks, like, yeah, training them and all this stuff, but you know, they have to be bought in, right? So are you spending time be like, Hey, what are your goals? What are you trying to accomplish? Like, can our company help you achieve your personal goals? Like, what is that? Do you even have

Kerri Coby White (31:35)
Yeah, it might be a little happy hour action.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Totally.

Kevin Daisey (32:03)
You even have goals. lot of the young people, they're like, I don't have any goals because I don't, they don't think they even can or should, or they haven't just stopped to think about like, well, you have financial goals. How's that work here with your, path here? Do you have a goal to like run a marathon? How can we help you? You need more off, you know, off work, we can sponsor you, whatever. So if you take time to like have one-on-ones with your staff every month, every week, and just don't just talk about work, but they need to be.

Kerri Coby White (32:09)
Yeah.

No.

That's awesome.

Kevin Daisey (32:33)
Like, you know, I really want to be here and you know what mean? So I think.

Kerri Coby White (32:35)
Yeah, I love that. So I'll

recommend a book for one of your book studies then. All in Michael Michael Michael Ockowski. Really? What? Say it again then. Did I get it right? McCallowitz. Sorry, Michaelowski was gosh, that was my neighbor I grew up with. Oh, no, I don't. Bless his heart. Haven't thought of Mr. Michaelowski in a long time. Yes, all in. Yeah, that's what that's it. That's an excellent book. Yeah, that's a good Bible.

Kevin Daisey (32:44)
Mike McCallowitz. This is Mike McCallowitz.

You see this punk right here? Oh, hold on. I didn't record him.

So.

about middle of 2024, I had Mike on the show. and we talked about all in. So, Mike, Mike McCallow has been on the show a few times.

Kerri Coby White (33:08)
I'm a big fan. You'll have to tell him I'm a big fan. All right,

so now I'm looking for one of my favorite books on team building to Joan Ryan intangibles, unlocking the science and soul of chem of team chemistry. Like this is great stuff.

Kevin Daisey (33:27)
Cool.

Kerri Coby White (33:28)
And this is why it's so important, managing partners, to get yourself away from some of the legal work and really be the CEO of your organization. It's so important. There's so much we can do to build great organizations that serve their communities and do the good work that we need them to do as people in a law firm. So great titles there.

Kevin Daisey (33:46)
Yeah. Great books. Check those out. There's pro tips. and yeah, Mike's written a lot of great books. profit first is another one that we follow. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I guess the, the moral of the story on this episode is, you know, have good team members, choose wisely, take care of them, understand them, work on your culture, your brand, make sure that's just throughout everything, you know, that you're doing not just leads from marketing.

Kerri Coby White (33:49)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, he's excellent.

train them.

Kevin Daisey (34:14)
Not just some simple intake steps, like it's got to be all the way through.

Kerri Coby White (34:18)
Yeah.

And the word that's hitting me right now, Kevin, is transparency. think we have to, you know, it's a new generation where young people are used to seeing everything. There is no behind the curtain anymore. And yet, you know, I still work with some lawyers who I'll say something that seems pretty innocuous to me. So what's the marketing budget? What's the monthly marketing budget? And it's like, ooh, only Mr. Jones of Jones and Jones knows the marketing budget. And it's like, well, wait a second. Then how am I supposed to know how important it is to answer that phone if I just think the phone

just rings. just pray and wish for phone calls and we get them. So the transparency that comes with welcoming people into the business can be powerful and motivating folks.

Kevin Daisey (34:54)
yeah.

Yeah. One of my four values here is transparency. So, um, you know, it's a difficult one to live up to, think, as an employee too, or to ask the team sometimes, um, like we've had mistakes in the past where, Hey, that website was down for like an hour. And then the team's like, well, the client never knew. So like, well, we got to tell them anyway. And they're never mad, but it's, hard for people to be like, but, but, know, should we. Yeah. We're sure it's us in the foot.

Kerri Coby White (35:05)
I love that.

It's hard.

Oof.

Oof.

Yeah, no, it's vulnerable. It's very vulnerable. Yeah, and that

right. Well, and that's the thing with call screening. We've got to get people comfortable letting, you know, letting their dirty laundry in the air. And, you know, it's the only way we can spot the stains and clean up.

Kevin Daisey (35:43)
Yeah. And another thing to your, when you were just mentioning the marketing budget, I interview a law firm, it's, you know, why are you reaching out? What do you think you need? What's the problems? But what is your revenue? And they go, now or last year or last month or anything you got. Um, and then what's your average case per practice area? What's your average case? You know, sometimes they don't know across the board, they'll come up with some numbers, but I'm learning that they know the numbers.

Kerri Coby White (35:51)
Yeah.

Ooh, the nerve, Kevin. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (36:13)
how

dialed in they are, how sophisticated they are as a law firm. And if I get you a lead, like what does that mean to you? And is that based on your competitive market and your practice area and then your budget, if they have one, like does it even work? Does it make sense?

Kerri Coby White (36:16)
Yeah.

night.

Yeah,

right. Yeah, are we we going to be aligned in that? You know, we've come a long way. But yeah.

Kevin Daisey (36:35)
But those were sensitive questions. So I always tell like,

Hey, if you want to have your admin on the call, like I'm going to ask you some stuff that if they're not exposed to it, because they might not be, like, you know, this is what I'm going to ask.

Kerri Coby White (36:44)
Right?

Yeah,

right. Well, you we've come a long way. I've been broadcasting about how important the data is since the 2020 Olympics, which actually took place in 2021. That was when I became data obsessed. And when I wrote my book, said one of the chapters, The Harsh Realities was you don't know your numbers. And if you're going to grow your practice, you need to know your numbers. And I have to tell you, I wrote an article

just this past spring about how far everyone has come in that this was a huge three or four years of law firms really tapping into their numbers. And I'm very proud of everyone for that because we had, you know, you can't fix what you don't acknowledge. And so we had to get very realistic about, you what does it cost? What does it take from us? What do we have to do to get it? Let's get raw here.

I'm very proud to see everyone come so far on that.

Kevin Daisey (37:48)
Good job law firms out there. Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised. And not, know, for me at this point, I can tell almost can tell like when I'm talking to a lawyer and they, and I spat out all these questions and I take notes. And if they're like Roy snappy quick. And I'm like, they have like a dashboard or for something like that. you in this group or this group or this group? And then usually pretty close. I'm usually pretty close to the right. It's like mastermind groups or whatever.

Kerri Coby White (37:50)
Yeah kudos

Yes, big fan. Yeah, you can now. Yeah.

Yeah, you got your fireproof dashboard. Yeah, I know.

Kevin Daisey (38:19)
Yeah. Or how to manage,

even how to manage for the smaller firms. Like I know they're in some of these groups because I just, and they're usually like, yep, I'm in that group. I'm in this group. so yeah.

Kerri Coby White (38:28)
Yeah. And

look at all the difference. I mean, it's just, and I get very excited seeing that when these folks really engage and look, this has been done. People have done this before you. You don't have to figure it out all alone. And that's another of my harsh realities is you can't do this all alone. It's an awful lot to get this whole thing humming. So tap into the experts. You're listening to a guest podcast. That's you know, that's a step. if you, you know, if you haven't done the mastermind yet, talk to the people who have, you know, I remind people all the time.

None of this stuff is an expense. It's an investment. And sometimes it's as simple as making the investment that helps you perform. I used to say, my mom, God, spending that $7 a week on Weight Watchers would motivate her like nothing else. sometimes it's just a matter of putting your money where your mouth is really turns on a different level of enthusiasm. investing in the mastermind, but even investing in training for your team, you're going to have higher expectations if you just put some money on the line. So I'm all for it.

Kevin Daisey (39:25)
Yes.

Spending some money helps you, focus on what you're supposed to be doing. for sure. Well, Kerri, think, you know, appreciate the conversation. obviously we could probably talk forever and go different tangents, but, you know, just the importance of intake, but how deep it goes and so how important it is to your marketing team, how important it is to your internal staff and team and your growth, how it reflects your brand and your culture.

Kerri Coby White (39:30)
Yeah, definitely all the things.

Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (39:54)
so it can get pretty deep and complex. would say connect with Kerri. and what's the best way for people to connect with you.

Kerri Coby White (39:59)
Thank you. Sure.

I am Kerri, K-E-R-R-I, Koby, C-O-B-Y, white, like the color. And if you look me up, you'll find me just about everywhere. LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Kerri, you know, I'll confuse you for one more second though than Kevin. The business is KerriJames.co But if you Google Kerri Koby white, you'll find me.

Kevin Daisey (40:22)
Appreciate that. Yeah, so, obviously if you're watching this on YouTube or LinkedIn She's probably tagged if you need to connect with her you'll ask me and I'll do an intro email and connect you as well. So great conversation great book recommendations and

Kerri Coby White (40:29)
please.

Appreciate that, as always. Absolutely.

Well, let me throw one more out there then by the law firm growth machine available at Kerry James. That's K-E-R-R-I-J-M-E-S dot C-O available in hard copy and digital and audio.

Kevin Daisey (40:54)
I can fully forgot, check out her book and be a great introduction and I can learn a lot from that too. So, well, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in as always. Appreciate you coming in here, showing up. if you have any topics you'd like to cover, or if you know a good guest or think you're a good guest, reach out. I'm a LinkedIn everywhere. Of course. I'll leave a comment here and we'll get you on the show. Kerri, thank you so much and everyone will see you soon.

Kerri Coby White (40:57)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Pleasure.

Cheers.