Darren Findling

Darren here is just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to business.

whether you're a small firm, solo, big firm. Darren has plenty to share with anyone here, and he's he's like a trailblazer. This guy is doing all kinds of cool stuff. And so anyway,

first question I wanted to lead with was just give us the golden nuggets.

Darren Findling (00:50)
One thing that I've been thinking about a lot, is always be focusing right at the beginning on the most important and urgent issues facing the organization. Don't put those to the end of the agenda. Deal with them right at the beginning. I know they're ugly.

They're difficult, they're challenging, but if you're always focusing on the most important and urgent issues facing your organization, whatever that may be, you're going to make massive inroads in solving complex problems and move your organization forward. One of the most frustrating things I experienced, especially when I sit on not-for-profit boards, is that there's lots of reporting. And then right at the end, they get to the juiciest issue and they end up running out of time. I don't have much patience for that. Within our organization.

We look at all of the issues that are facing it each week. We prioritize them based on the most important and urgent, and we tackle them one at a time. Most important urgent, next most important urgent, and so on down the list. So don't delay, take those issues head on each day, each meeting all the time.

Kevin Daisey (01:49)
That's, I mean, that's a great tip and I think a hard one for a lot of folks, me included in the past. And I think it's something you got to be reminded of constantly and I think having a discipline and make it more of a habit is massive amount of traction that you're going to get and how far ahead it's going to to me, it of goes back to like, like the power list. You know, three things today that you're going to accomplish no matter what.

And you have to get done. And kind of to Darren's point, what's the big pressing things that you don't want to do? That's probably the things that you should be putting on the top of the list. It's not fun. We don't want to do all that stuff, whatever it may be. But the power list is a good way to get into that is what's three things a day I got to get done no matter what. And the rest of the stuff I have to put aside. And I can get to that stuff once I get these three things done.

Before I go to bed tonight, I'm get these three things accomplished. ⁓

Darren Findling (02:37)
No question.

think that there's a tendency, especially in a meeting, to want to ease people into it. So there's a lot of reporting. Reporting can be really boring. I'm not suggesting that you don't need sufficient information to be informed, to make decisions, but the bulk of your meeting needs to be about solving issues facing your organization. Don't shy away from it. Lean right into it. And I would, again, add to the meeting

Kevin Daisey (02:57)
Hmm.

Darren Findling (03:02)
I got a whole bunch I could talk about with effective and quality meetings. But you want conflict. You want healthy discourse and conflict. That's what makes a great meeting. If everyone's just agreeing, agreeing, agreeing, there's not much happening there. First of all, you're not really solving much. And second of all, it's pretty uninspiring for the participants. So you want issues that you're going to get a variety of opinions on, and then they're solved, each meeting starting with the most important and urgent ones facing the organization.

Kevin Daisey (03:28)
Well, it's kind of like the old saying, you know, dress the elephant in the room. So it's.

Darren Findling (03:33)
Yeah, Kevin, give me one second. want to show you something about that. We might as well because I think you'll appreciate this. I've got a giant ⁓ elephant in the room that I bring to all of our important meetings. It's a big one. It's not a small elephant. And we place it on the middle of the table. And when we're not addressing the elephant in the room, we are reminded through this demonstrative that we need

Kevin Daisey (03:36)
okay, let's go.

feel like an elephant's coming in the... There ⁓ you go.

Darren Findling (04:00)
to be addressing the elephant in the room, or we're not doing a good job at leading the meeting. know, whole bunch of stuffed animals, I'll keep pulling them out. I feel like I'm part of the Muppet Squad here, but I have a lot of stuffed animals that I use in meetings as demonstratives to kind of be a little playful, but also serious about making sure that we're addressing issues in an appropriate way.

Kevin Daisey (04:06)
That's awesome. ⁓

Yeah, I love that. That is awesome. Yes, Darren's got many talents. Puppetry is one of them.

Darren Findling (04:27)
Yeah, I got a rabbit in a hole. I got a rabbit. I got an airplane. I got a shark up there. I got an octopus. I got a dinosaur. I got a hippo. I got a black sheep. I got a whole bunch of stuffed animals here as resources that we use. And they're fun ways to bring into the meeting to make sure that we're reminded of these important concepts in meetings to run an effective meeting and to solve issues to advance.

the mission of our organization.

Kevin Daisey (04:53)
Yeah.

I love it. mean, a lot of time can be spent meeting, uh, at our teams are, you know, most important thing of our companies. And there's a lot of meetings that happen a lot of conversations, a lot of time. Um, and, and I'll just throw in a thing like here, like my team's done this in the past and you know, we we've caught ourselves and do lessons learned and stuff that say I'm meeting with you, Darren on your marketing. I can give her all this data and all this stuff. Meanwhile, we know.

there's a problem that we have to address and you as the client, that's the only thing on your mind is going, why are they showing me all this stuff, the data and reports? Like let's get to the elephant in the room. Let's get to the problems. Let's get to the things we need to work on. So I think that's a good reminder. think, I think it's challenged for most to address those things straight on. And imagine if, you know, you're someone on the team that you know, there's a big problem and we're like,

Why are we not talking about this? Why is the owner or the leader not bringing this up? We know this is a problem, we just heard about it outside, whatever. The confidence of the team goes down and those folks that are wanting to address that are gonna feel like, hey, what are we doing here? Why are we in this meeting?

Darren Findling (05:58)
You know, Kevin, one of the other things that we do that is maybe novel, but I'm going to suggest that people give this a go. We all know we've sat through terrible meetings before, like they're exhausting, they're painful. Sometimes you're wondering why you're there. And the leader of the meeting just continues to run a bad meeting after bad meeting after bad meeting. And it's really uninspiring and quite exhausting to be a part of it, especially if you get sucked into lots of meetings.

So we have a practice within our leadership team, which is at the end of every single meeting, we go around in a circle and we rate that meeting one to 10. 10 being the best, one being really, really, really bad. And then if it's not a 10, we identify what could have occurred for it to be a 10. So we get live feedback for the leader of the meeting. Cause I can promise you the next time that leader

is preparing for the meeting, they're going to try to get tens at every scorecard that's held up at the end, and they're going to make adjustments. So constant feedback to allow the leader to improve the quality of the meetings. And it's our belief that if you go to a meeting, it should be rewarding, valuable, and if you're not there, you're missing out on something really important. That's how we structure our meetings to make them valuable for the people that are participating.

Kevin Daisey (07:16)
Wow, that's awesome. That's gold right there. I bet, yeah, anyone that shows up to your meetings doesn't want to get a one. They probably won't be leading the meeting at your organization if they get a one.

Darren Findling (07:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, shouldn't be, if they're ones, they shouldn't be around very long. But I think the point here is that we want constant feedback. We want the meetings to be really valuable. We want them to be interesting, valuable, and advancing the organization. These are not reporting sessions. Reporting sessions are boring. I can read reports. I can get armed with information so I can make decisions. The greatest value I have to the organization is using my wisdom and my experience to make important decisions for the organization.

So arm me with sufficient information to make those decisions that will keep advancing the organization.

Kevin Daisey (08:02)
That's awesome. I want to make my whole team listen to this recording. Because we have meetings. We have lot of meetings and we have client meetings every single month.

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Kevin Daisey (09:21)
⁓

Darren Findling (09:22)
There's a great book, Death

by Meeting, I don't know if you've ever read that book by Patrick Lencioni I think I'm saying his name correct, but it's called Death by Meeting and it really talks about these concepts around improving the quality of your meetings. Meetings are such an important part of your organization's rhythm. Let's get them right and make them valuable and interesting and good for your people and your organization.

Kevin Daisey (09:44)
That's huge. I love it. Well, we could talk about meetings all day. but I want to have you tell us your, your story and, about, the Probate Pro, for those, that don't know you. but yeah, tell us a little bit about your background and, and we'll get more into some of this, great, business lessons here that you can share with us too. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Darren Findling (10:03)
Thanks Kevin. So the Probate Pro is a national probate coordination firm. I know that many people don't even know what the word probate means, let alone probate coordination. Here's the pain point that we solve. There are personal injury lawyers around the country and mass tort lawyers around the country that have cases in which people have died. Maybe they died because of the accident or the issue, or maybe they died during the pendency.

And they need to have standing the authority to file that lawsuit or to continue the lawsuit. And the way you get that standing is through the probate court with a letter of authority, a letter of administration. So this pain point that exists on single event cases has existed for years, as well as at the mass tort level. People are constantly trying to locate lawyers around the country to provide that assistance to give them the standing to file their suit.

So we are generally the first call after a case is signed up after somebody is identified as deceased so that we can come in and support that firm in getting the letter of authority. Also part and parcel to getting that letter of authority and having the standing to file the suit is the authority to control the case, meaning if two law firms are competing for the same person who died and one comes to us and one goes to a competitor.

And I'm successful at getting that letter of administration first. They get to control the case and of course earn the attorney fee. So there's a lot of intention to come to the Probate Pro quickly. We've solved the problem by being able to place probates all over the country, every nook and cranny, big city, Manhattan, all the way to small town nooks and crannies of South Dakota. If there's somebody that has died.

Where the one stop shop to be able to address all the probate related issues and we become a very valuable great resource for mass tort firms around the country as well as single event lawyers around the country to send us their probate work when these situations arise and i'm using the death example but it also applies to miners. What was for people that are brain injuries or mental capacity.

situations guardianship related issues. So this is the pain point that we've solved and the business, the Probate Pro is in the business of addressing these issues. So most of our business comes from other lawyers all over the country. We work with the largest mass tort firms around the country and the most successful personal injury lawyers around the country to support them in getting letters of administration and then carrying the legal work all the way through.

until the money has been distributed to the family.

Kevin Daisey (12:47)
That's pretty, so very niche. Cause I've heard you talk about this to others around the conference scene and explaining what you do. And so you found the niche in a niche, I guess, if you will. pretty awesome, which I, you know, I'm all about niching and it's been a big part of my business. it's been focusing like, yeah.

Darren Findling (13:01)
We're like a hyper niche. It's really particular.

And historically through my career, was always really good at identifying niches. That was a part of my kind of entrepreneurial spirit. If you went back to the beginning of my career, I was good at that. And in this particular case, we've got a really good niche that is a great resource. It's a win-win-win. It's a win for the referring lawyer. It's a win for us. And of course, it's a win for the client.

We all benefit from this and yes, it's a niche.

Kevin Daisey (13:32)
Yeah, I love it. I love it. so, above my pay grade a little bit, but I have a good understanding of what you do. I guess, yeah, anyone listen, if you're PI or do mass tort, if you don't know Darren, connect with him. Sounds like he has a service you can't afford not to have access to if you're in that situation. clients find you, find your firm as well, just...

through their own means and location or is it, know, obviously most of your business is from law firms directly.

Darren Findling (14:00)
Yeah. So probably about 90 % of our business comes from other referrals from law firms around the country, business to business. And then about 10 to 15 % comes from just brand strength direct to consumer. So we also realized pretty early on that because probate is a high volume, low margin business that the cost of acquisition is quite high. No different than a personal injury case, but

There's a big upside on the personal injury case. So spending thousands of dollars through typical marketing strategies for probate would be cost prohibitive. You're not going to be able to ultimately grow and scale a business like we've done by spending those kinds of dollars because the payout on the backside is not as large, of course, as a personal injury case. So we ride the coattails of these personal injury firms that are doing massive.

advertising all over the country, the radio through print as well, billboards and of course television. And those matters ultimately get referred to us. So we recognize establishing B2B relationships was a more effective strategy than going direct to consumer. Direct to consumer is difficult. Every time you got to get a new client, to acquire that new client. For us, the strategy made more sense to go business to business.

Kevin Daisey (15:18)
Yeah, I love it. No, you're a hundred percent right. Cause we do consumer side and it's, yeah, it's, it's a battle and it's competitive, especially if in the PI space mess twerp. So yeah, great, great business move there. I love it. And so just a little bit more background to how many folks you have offices, what's the makeup look like?

Darren Findling (15:35)
Yeah, I think we're about 130, 140 people in the business still growing and plans to continue to grow. We got a lot of lawyers, we've got paralegal legal staff, we've got people in different places and we have physical plants in different places. And then we also have this network of lawyers that really are in the hundreds who work with the Probate Pro who are not my employees, I'm not

paying them, they're not on my payroll, but they're part of our network where they're performing the local services all over the country. So it's a big enterprise, there's a lot of complexity to running a business of this size. I thought that as I got bigger, it would be easier. That was wrong. It hasn't gotten easier. It was complicated when I was a solo guy and it's complicated at this stage and I'm sure it'll continue to be complicated until I...

out of this industry, but it's an enjoyable business to be in. And I keep saying the word business because we really operate this as a business. We look at business concepts to guide us. We are not viewing other law firms as models for our business. We look at the most best in the business to be able to model ourselves and get inspiration for growth. Because generally law firms are not

particularly well managed and well run. Some are, but most are not. And so we really try to embody and use progressive business concepts to grow and build the business.

Kevin Daisey (17:03)
Yeah, I love that. And that's what I picked up on when I first met Darren and that he's a business owner. He's an entrepreneur. and he gets it. And that's what this show is all about. You know, having folks on to share what they've done, to be successful. Darren's one of those that is doing all of it and, and, and looking at everything, every piece of the business, every little thing he can do to, to win and to get a leg up and to be more efficient.

and I think that's what makes him special. And so when he gave those steps in the beginning of the show about the meetings and, you know, those things, I feel you'll take that seriously knowing where he's at and how accomplished he is. And, and then go out when I, when I see Darren, he's always, it's always something new or something he's talking about, that he's figured out or he's listening to, or always trying to learn. So I think.

Darren Findling (17:47)
You know, Kevin, you mentioned seeing you at conferences and I know you're the same way. I try to be a sponge. I I have the belief that I may be wise, but there's a lot more wisdom to be learned by talking to a lot of people and building connections. And at conferences, you're around a lot of really impressive people, people who have achieved huge success and people in different disciplines, the vendors.

In your particular case, your company, lots of people that you can have conversations with to learn ideas to help grow and scale the business. Because maybe I was naturally entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of people running law firms and trying to grow law firms that aren't necessarily business-minded, business-focused. So there's just a lot of learning to be done. And I come from a mindset of constant learning, kind of an abundance mindset.

that you're always going to learn something. So talk to a lot of people to see what little nuggets you can pick up along the way.

Kevin Daisey (18:46)
No, yeah, that's me. That's why this show is so fun because obviously get to have these one-on-ones and conversations. Yeah, it's for the audience and the content and all that, but the one-on-one piece of this and what I can pick up from listening to you. And then I can go share this with others once it's edited and say, Hey, you got to this episode. Or I'll have a lawyer call me and like, Hey, Kevin, I got a sales issue. I don't do sales. We do marketing.

Check out this one episode that I recorded with so-and-so and It's the resources that in the conversations and yeah to your point, you know talking to like another lawyer to me I learned just as much about my own business or to some of these vendors like the AI guys and these cool things that they're doing and investments and raising capital and building out these cool programs to do these different things like wow, that's

That's really cool. I like to hear it all, you know, so it's just, so that's the fun part.

Darren Findling (19:37)
Yeah.

And you know, Kevin, I think that you probably would share this, I suspect, but at conferences, I learn a little bit in the large rooms where there's a presenter, but almost all of my learning has occurred in the hallways. Talking to people, even at meals, but often when you least expect it. So I go to a lot of these conferences for the purpose of

Kevin Daisey (19:50)
you

Darren Findling (20:02)
learning learning the industry watching trends seeing where things are going finding opportunities of course to see the people that send work to us and be able to say hello to them but it really is a learning exercise to continue to build information such that we can continue to grow and build the business.

Kevin Daisey (20:19)
a hundred percent. That's exactly me. And if you notice at me at conferences, I'm not going to be all the breakouts are in some of the main rooms. I'm usually back in the hall or the trade rooms, where the booths are, or at dinner or wherever where I'm having real good conversations with folks. that's where all the value is for me for sure.

Darren Findling (20:37)
Yeah. And, and I know, you know, you and I have talked now over the last number of months when we've been at conferences, but the other thing that was really interesting, maybe surprising to me when I started going to conferences, especially among personal injury lawyers, they're willing to talk. They like talking, they're extroverts. So they're willing to share and talk. And if you ask questions, they're willing to share and give input and ideas on how to grow and build a business. And so.

Whether you want to be a one-person lawyer or a thousand lawyers in your firm, there's a lot to be learned by just asking a lot of questions of people.

Kevin Daisey (21:10)
They're so, approachable and open and, you know, you know, when I, when I started in this business of doing marketing, try to get ahold of a owner of a personal energy firm to sell them marketing services. You know what I mean? even, yeah, it just sounds crazy. Like if I was starting the server again, but going to conferences, having this podcast, having conversations like this.

You know, you show up at these things. So if you're a law firm owner, like MPI, doesn't matter what space you're in. You can walk up to like the most successful lawyer in the room and they'll talk to you and just say hi and share, whatever. And the thing is they're there to learn how to get better. And you might think they're at the top of their game, but they're, paying to be at these conferences to learn something and pick something up.

Darren Findling (21:51)
Yeah, no question. have stories through my conference career of talking to owners of some of the largest personal injury firms, mass tort firms in the country. Those people I would never ever be able to have access to by simply picking up the phone and trying to call them or rarely have access to. And in these particular conferences, they're walking the halls, chatting with everybody. So it really is a valuable use of my time.

Kevin Daisey (22:06)
Mm-mm.

Darren Findling (22:16)
I go to quite a few of them. I've reduced the number that I go to more recently, but I still find them to be really valuable.

Kevin Daisey (22:23)
Yeah. And, you know, I'll see podcasts guests there. I'll see, competitors. know, most my competitors I'm friendly with and chat with often. and so I value that too. And, know, a lot of lawyers are just, you know, they'll probably never be a client, but I have, I'm friends with a lot of these folks and, and just value that too. So to me, they're, they're, they're awesome. And, I think, yeah, going to every single one.

every single time. Kind of hard to do, but there's a few that would say are worth going to all the time.

Darren Findling (22:52)
Yeah, yeah, I feel

the same way. Yeah. And I've been more selective. Like there are some that I've gone and I'm not going to go back. I just don't feel like either the level of talent is there or the demographics of those people that may send us work are not there. So I've been a little more selective over the last few years. So I've reduced the number and periodically I'll try new ones. Cause I think, you know, you gotta be entrepreneurial and try stuff.

Kevin Daisey (23:18)
yeah. And I think I've been to somewhere I'm like, okay, the, this is more about learning to be a lawyer better or the mindset's not there or the business ownership mindset's not there. You know, not as good.

Darren Findling (23:28)
Right,

right. It sounds like you and I have a similar theme here, which is that we want to be in conferences where it's more about growth, business growth and networking than it would be simply about learning, you know, the newest law that just came out. And there's lots of those conferences too. And I'm not suggesting people shouldn't go to those. just, you know, there's a different purpose in going to those and there would be

going to the conferences that you and I see each other generally.

Kevin Daisey (23:54)
Yeah, a hundred percent. So, uh, well, Darren, I know you could share a whole lot more. We could probably talk everyone's ears off, um, for days on end. Um, because you're still getting so much that you've done and you're still doing that you can share. think what you shared, uh, just out the gates on the beginning, uh, is invaluable if people would just take that home with them, um, and focus on those core issues.

At the front of the meeting, you know, dive right into those things and get them out of the way. The elephant in the room, if you will. I love the elephant in the room, like actually bringing the elephant to the meeting. And, I like the rating system. That's awesome. Something that I'm going to share with my president here, right after this recording, actually, great tips, great information. what's the best way folks can connect with you personally.

better listening then of course ProBate Pro.

Darren Findling (24:45)
Absolutely. So you can always reach the Probate Pro. We're very accessible through our website, theprobatepro.com as well as 833 probate. Those are two direct ways. I'm also very accessible for those people that are interested or may have opportunities to send work. My name is in the red at the bottom corner. It's spelled D-A-R-R-E-N. So Darren at theprobatepro.com

And I love to chat with people, whether it's through email, phone call, or at conferences to discuss opportunities that could be beneficial to both, whether it's about law or about business growth. Because I got mentored by a lot of people as I got to where I am today. Lots of people were helpful that I would ask, and they would simply say, sure. And they would give me a few minutes to share ideas.

If there's somebody out there that is trying to figure stuff out and you're looking for a mentor, I'm also happy to pay it forward or pay it back for purposes of helping out along the way in your journey as you're trying to grow and scale your business.

Kevin Daisey (25:49)
I would say everyone, that's a great offer. take him up on that. reach out if you need to connect with him, you can let me know. I can do an introduction. you can find him on LinkedIn as well, but, yeah, reach out to me you want to get contacted by him or whatever, can, I can sync that up. And of course, if you have any questions too, if you're watching this on LinkedIn or YouTube or Facebook, we put this live all over the place. leave a comment, you know, ask Darren a question.

I can tag him and make sure he gets a chance to respond to you and also provide any feedback. know, any of these things you've heard of or tried before. I'd love to know if you have and leave the comment. Darren, what's the next?

Darren Findling (26:27)
Maybe Kevin, someone

will give us like a, they'll give us like a one to 10 rating and then provide feedback as to how we could be better, right?

Kevin Daisey (26:34)
Yeah. Rate

this podcast episode, one to 10, how Darren do had Kevin do and, we'll improve for sure. So I appreciate that. That'd be great. Darren. What's the next conference I can see.

Darren Findling (26:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know, interesting. going to be, I may go to the one in Puerto Rico. There's a mass towards one there. I'm going to be at the linear Academy or Institute that is down in Houston. Mark linear is an extraordinary, maybe best in the business presenter. And I go every year. just eat up everything he says, cause he's brilliant. And of course there are firms sends us work. So I'm really proud to, to be there. And so,

Hopefully we'll see it though, if not the NTLs of the world or MTMPs. You know, these are conferences. Yeah. Yeah. I tend to go to the, yeah, I tend to go to the national, the national ones. Um, Kevin, let me also, can I, do you have a minute? Can I throw one more thing out there? just want to talk about. Okay. You know, one more thing I.

Kevin Daisey (27:20)
Yep, lot of y'all, NTL. Yeah, I'll be seeing you a couple of those.

yeah, we're good. Let's do it.

Darren Findling (27:37)
I think about a lot because people will say to me, you know, I want to grow my business. I want to grow the firm. want to whatever grow. And I really asked them how much stamina they have for it kind of in their stomach. they do they just want to get hit by a lightning bolt and get rich or do they actually want to put the energy and effort into growing, which is how most businesses grow. It's exhausting.

Kevin Daisey (27:49)
you

Darren Findling (28:02)
I work seven days a week, done that for most of my life, not every hour of every day of every week. I took a lot of vacations. work hard during the week and I play hard when I'm out, you know, with my friends or vacationing. But I have a massively high competitive stamina. Like I am really, really intent on achieving the vision of the Pro8 Pro. So I always ask people about how hungry they are.

Are they they willing to do what it takes, what most people need to be able to achieve the size or scale? Because you have to make sacrifices. You simply can't truly be completely in balance and then grow a business to an outsized proportion. So think long and hard about what you want and how hard you want to work to get that. And I think that that's

piece that I happen to be wired that way. was like that when I was a kid. was very competitively, I high competitive stamina all the way as a child and it carries through to where I am today. So it doesn't come easy. know anybody that's growing and building a business knows that it's hard and there's no shortcuts to do it. I did not get hit by a lightning bolt. I did seize upon opportunities when they arose and knew

to recognize that there's an opportunity and go for it. But none of this has been easy and I just suspect that anybody out there trying to grow and build a business is gonna go through that same journey of really, really digging deep and working hard. So I support you, all of you out there listening in that journey and hopefully I can be helpful and supportive.

Kevin Daisey (29:34)
Not that is I'm glad you ended it like that. And it's, that's so true. and I think anyone that someone say, wow, they really have done it or they, that's a law firm owner. That's they're competitive. They're crushing it. And they're all these shows, right? Trying to learn more. Like none of it was easy for them. This is what they did. And every time you said, you, you you seize an opportunity, you can easily be like, well, that's going to be more work and give up.

that opportunity. So I think it's, it's always more work and there's no, I forgot who was it that said this. I had Mike McAuliffe is on recently and it might have been him, but work life balance is like that doesn't exist. It's work like rhythm. Because we're working more than we are.

living and hanging around and doing what we want to do. Right. So we're at the office a lot where we're working, you know, like you said, seven days a week, um, for while on vacation, you're, probably getting, getting work done and getting things done. So, um, you gotta find that rhythm and it's gotta work with within your life and how you want to do things and vacation. Uh, if you're trying to separate them to, to be separate things, this is not going to work.

Darren Findling (30:39)
Yeah. And again, nobody's, there's no one way to do this and there's no one end result of what it looks like. It's just really ask yourself what you want and how hard do you really want to work and how hard, how much energy do you really want and how many sleepless nights do you want? I can speak just even the last two nights, there were issues of facing or the organization of decisions that I need to make that kept me up much of the night, just thinking about it. Some people don't want that.

And some people thrive on it. happen to kind of like it. Not all the time. I always describe it as like when you're boiling macaroni and cheese, I like when the water's just simmering and once in a while, a little bit boils over, but I don't want it boiling over right all the time when the foam pops over the water line. I like it. I like the bubble because it's exciting and interesting when you're at that level when there's a simmer.

Kevin Daisey (31:32)
But you're going to have some bowl overs every once in a while.

Darren Findling (31:35)
Right?

Totally.

Kevin Daisey (31:37)
I love it, man. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. mean, that's a, that's a big question for people to ask themselves. And I think, if you really want to get after it, you know, making those decisions and figuring out where you're really at, as the law firm owner. I think, you know, that one too, I talk about a lot is, know, are you a lawyer or are you a business owner? You could be either one. You can be both, but some that choose to be the

Darren Findling (31:57)
Right. I remember

that was a decision I had to make pretty early on. had read the book, The E-Myth by Michael Gerber, where he talks about, you going to be in the business or work on the business? And I know that that's a big issue for a lot of people, especially lawyers that are running, lawyers who are practicing and trying cases and also running their business. Something's got to give. So I happen to have a management team primarily of non-lawyers who are running

Kevin Daisey (32:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Darren Findling (32:23)
business with me. So I made that decision early on because I watched other big law firms being partner managed and how problematic that was and how inefficient they were and how really bad they were at running. So I wanted to bring in professionals who ran businesses to lead the organization versus people that were going to do both. And at first it was expensive and

you frustrating that I had to spend that kind of money, but over a period of time, you build it into the economic model of your organization.

Kevin Daisey (32:55)
No, a hundred percent. I think, um, you know, traditionally in the managing partner role, name of the podcast, um, it's a role that moves around, right? So you got to, in some cases, right. Um, managing partner for, uh, three years and then I'm out of it and then maybe it's on someone else. So not the way it should be done. And I think, you know, lawyer like Craig Goldenfarb, I don't know if you know him.

he made a very conscious decision to be a CEO, a business owner, very quickly out the gate. And I think making that decision, do you want to try some cases or you want to the business or do you want to be the lawyer? Maybe you have a business partner that wants to be the business side of things. But I think making that decision is important.

Darren Findling (33:34)
Yeah. One

of the things I think about a lot to that comment is when you wake up in the morning, you jump out of bed, not every day, but most days, are you thinking about practicing law or are you thinking about growing and scaling your business? And if you're thinking about practicing law, ask yourself the question, should I just be doing what I love? I'm passionate about and let those who are waking up in the morning, interested in running the business.

Run the business you get excited about firing hiring and managing employees if you don't. Then you shouldn't be doing it so i want people who are doing those roles who wake up in morning are super excited about doing that versus those that reluctantly do it are frustrated about doing it and don't do it well.

Kevin Daisey (34:21)
Yeah. Good final tip from Darren. Look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself a couple of hard questions today. So, all right. Well, Darren, I really appreciate all that you've had to share today. Plenty more. I'm sure we can have you on again here soon to dive into some different topics, but everyone, hey, please connect with Darren and reach out to him. And he's got so much more. And if you're at a conference soon, look for him. He'll be in a red.

Darren Findling (34:25)
No.

Yeah, I love doing this.

Kevin Daisey (34:46)
T-shirt or sweatshirt with a probe. Yeah. Running around. So, all right, Dan, thank you so much. everyone. Thank you for tuning in as always, and we'll see you soon.

Darren Findling (34:46)
Red Pro Me Pro, Red Pro Me Pro hoodie.