The Managing Partners Podcast

Eric Dewey

Episode # 236
Interview on 01.12.2023
Hosted By: Kevin Daisey
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About Eric Dewey

Managing partner of: Group Dewey Consulting and eLegal Training

Eric Dewey is the Managing Partner at Group Dewey Consulting and eLegal Training in California.

In 2020, Eric launched eLegal Training, LLC, an online virtual business development training, coaching, and referral community for business lawyers. The platform features 200 learning modules, a forms library, gamification, custom dashboards, automation, reporting, and coaching to help lawyers achieve their goals faster and more efficiently. The platform also allows firms to deliver training to their clients or collect a range of survey types.

Eric is the author of Power Grids. How Successful Lawyers Build Powerful Networks That Drive Reputations, Relationships, Referrals, and Revenues, published in 2022 and available on Amazon.

Learn from his expertise and what trends are helping grow his firm on this episode of The Managing Partners Podcast!

Watch the episode

Episode transcript

Kevin Daisey (00:02):
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another live episode of the managing partners podcast. My name is Kevin Daisey, and I’ll be your host. Also the founder of array digital. We help law firms grow through digital marketing. Happy to have this guest here today. We have a special guest from Sacramento, California area. So Eric Dewey, welcome to the show.

Eric Dewey (00:25):
Thanks Kevin. I’m I’m really pleased by the opportunity to be here.

Kevin Daisey (00:31):
Oh, absolutely. So Eric is when I say special guests, he is here because he’s been in the legal space. He understands law firms, how they’re ran how they need to operate, focus on sales and things like that. But he’s coming from a little bit of a different angle. And I’ll let him kind of tell you a little bit about that. He’s also also the book power grids, which I’ll share here in just a moment also web address that you can check out to find out more about Eric and connect with him. But Eric, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background. Sure. And what brings you here to talk with me today?

Eric Dewey (01:14):
So I’ve been in professional services. My entire career started out in commercial real estate and then moved into banking. And then for the past 20 years, I have been working in the legal space. I’ve been the chief marketing officer for four large law firms, and then I branched out and began consulting on my own. So I’ve worked with large, small firms, boutique firms. I used to do the coaching program for Sid Austin for four years, their new partner coaching program. And I’ve worked with, you know, probably a third of the AmLaw 200 firms. And so you

Kevin Daisey (01:57):
Have some experience

Eric Dewey (01:58):
Coaching experience. I’ve had the opportunity to really observe really great rainmakers and and really analyze a lot of different attorneys practice practices and what they’re doing. I, I, I I’ve found that I can know whether attorney will be successful by really delving into two areas, one their connections, who they know, who knows them, the kind, the quality of the people that they know and how well they manage that network of connections. And the second by what they’re doing, what what’s the discipline, what habits do they develop in terms of business development? And if they meet both of those criteria, they’ve got a great network of connections and they are reaching out to ’em on a regular basis. And they’re, you know, being a giver and adding value in all their conversations. They generate a ton of work and I began to see a pattern in that.

Eric Dewey (02:54):
And so I decided to put what I’ve seen in a book and I called it power grids. Because what I see in the most successful attorneys is that they have a group of people, usually between 50 and 150 other professionals who are either clients past clients, referral sources, peer attorneys other resources influencers, but they have a group of people that they contact regularly and stay in touch with. And that power grid that, that group of people produces insights. It produces market intelligence, competitive intelligence, it produces opportunities, introductions to new people that they may add into their power grid. And so it, it, it kind of, you know, when they do it right, when they’re always looking out to help other people, their power grid fuels their success and the success of others in their, in their network.

Eric Dewey (04:00):
And so in the book you know, one of the things that I’ve done historically in my career is always try to break everything down and I wanna understand how it works. I just, I tinker with things and I, I look at the assumptions and try to understand why did things work the way they do or what doesn’t work that’s that people do, but that doesn’t actually work. And so <laugh> in the book. What I’ve done is gone through all those things and dispelled some of the myths about business development, but also walk through the process and why things work the way they do. And so you can be confident when you’re reading, when you’re reading these steps and it is very much a step by step process. Nice. It you know, you, can, you, you begin to understand why these things work the way they do.

Eric Dewey (04:50):
And some of the advice, for instance, I even go to the point of explaining how to have an outreach call. Like most people go, well, I just call ’em up and see how they’re doing. What’s new, you know, all that. And no, you wanna have a productive call. You wanna have it occur quickly and accomplish something in that process. So I use a process called share care, pivot, and plus up. And that means when you call, you have what’s going on with you, you have something new to share with them. That’s going on professionally or personally, you talk about something going on in that person’s life, either professionally or personally. So you’re paying attention to ’em show ’em that they, they show up on your radar pivot means how are you gonna go from the small talk kind of casual conversation to an objective that you have for the call. And then plus up is how are you gonna leave them with something that, that they value and will feel like they got something outta that call? And those calls can be very short and they can, you know, they can be longer. But if you follow that formula you know, the, the, the calls are more productive.

Kevin Daisey (06:02):
I love that. So, so it sounds like a lot of, and everyone listening, if you’re listening on your, in your car or wherever you may be the book is power grid. So just power grids, you can look it up on Amazon, it’s available also for anyone tuning in right now, if you look on your screen or if you’re listening, if you visit E legal So that’s the letter E legal That’s his website. It’s got the book on there, it’s got everything else about him. He’s got some other materials and, and things you can look at too, but go check that out just so you can get more familiar with Eric, maybe as you watch this,

Eric Dewey (06:41):
The full title of the book, and you may need the rest of the title to search it on Amazon, but it’s power grids. How successful lawyers build powerful networks that drive reputations relationships, referrals, and revenues.

Kevin Daisey (06:56):
Oh, wow. Okay. Excellent. So, yeah, add that. <Laugh> add that to your searching if you can’t find it. If not, I’ll provide the link in the comments on this post on YouTube or LinkedIn, so that you can click on it as well. So one going back to one of the things you said, so I built my business originally on networking. I had no clue who anyone was. I was moved into a new area and I had to go organically start meeting people. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Now of course, anyone listening, you know, that we do digital marketing, we believe in marketing and getting yourself found, but you need to have a network. You need to focus on that. You don’t wanna rely on marketing, just like you don’t wanna rely on referrals. You need to have all those things working for you. Yeah. If you’re smaller or starting out, you might not be able to afford marketing, advertising and all that.

Kevin Daisey (07:46):
So your network is literally, what’s gonna keep you moving and, and growing before you can kind of expand out from there. Yeah. so at, to me though, I think the biggest thing here is most people just network and they float around and they might just say, eh, I’m gonna go to this thing. I’m going to a dinner tonight. Actually, it’s a big dinner in honor of someone in our city that I know mm-hmm, <affirmative> one person per year. So it’s a big dinner about one person and it’s a networking opportunity. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but I think most people just, they go and say, oh yeah, I’m gonna go to this event. Well, what are you gonna do there? Well, I don’t know. Maybe I’ll run into some people or whatever. They’re not intentional about it. They don’t have a plan. They have no script. They don’t have an eye on their clock or time that you talk to someone, you know, in the back corner and then the whole events over with, and you didn’t meet anyone new. Yeah. So <laugh>, so it sounds like what you’re saying is have a plan be intentional. Don’t just float around an event. Yeah.

Eric Dewey (08:50):
Well, and, and more to the point, I think, you know, anytime you do sales training, networking is one of the first things people bring up, you have to go out and meet people. And I try to distinguish between meeting a lot of people. When I look at an attorney’s list of their connections, you know, I try to understand how many people they know and where do they know and what industries and what mix of clients do they have. And most people just go out to meet more and more people. And there comes a point in time when you have, you know, enough people. What you need to do is then develop this network of people who have a mutual interest in each other’s success. And that’s where the power grid is. And so when I start working, I, my majority of my work is business development, coaching of, of corporate attorneys.

Eric Dewey (09:41):
And when I start working with them, I, I ask them to give me their list of contacts and they’ll pull their email list and you know, outta their CRM system and go here’s who I know. And then I say, are the people that you’ve worked with in the past are the attorneys that you’ve sat across the table from in here are the people from your LinkedIn following in here are the, you know, the people, you know, on social media in here, do you have friends and family in this list? Do you have past people that you’ve worked with in past jobs or law school, or what have you, you know, more people than you realize, you know? And so I take ’em through a process to try to get everybody they know into a master list of contacts. And it’s a, it’s a grueling process.

Eric Dewey (10:29):
If they do it correctly, it’s it really takes some time. I see. And I encourage them to use their administrative assistant or somebody else to help them in terms of tracking down contact information and things like that. But once they get that master list of contacts, then they can go through categorize them, who are my referral sources, who are my clients, who are my, you know, prospective clients who are good sources of information, categorize them and then prioritize them. And in the book, I, I describe who should be in your power grid, how to figure out who’s best to be in your power grid, but then to select about 150 people of the best quality people that you’ve known or currently known and have them in your power grid, and then reach out to three of ’em every day. And if you do that, which is tough, but I give you a, I give you some tips on how to make those calls happen quickly, or mix it up between dinners and lunches, and you can do it, but yeah, you wanna have 150 outreaches every quarter.

Eric Dewey (11:36):
And then that means you’ll be reaching those people four times a year. That level of outreach is enough to generate work. I see clients that start generating work within three months, sometimes as quick as a month or two months, cuz they go through their master list of connections and they realize, oh, I, I haven’t talked to this guy in 10 years. I only give him a call and sure enough outcome, a couple files that he’s now able to start working on. So so doing that though typically generates work within three to six months and the continuous habit of doing that, making that part of your daily routine then really begins to eliminate the ebb and flow of work. So, you know, when you’ve got a lot of work, you don’t do business development and when you don’t have projects on the plate, then you start scrambling and trying to do business development and you, and you put yourself in this fester famine cycle that is agonizing it’s

Kevin Daisey (12:34):
I hear it all the time. <Laugh>

Eric Dewey (12:38):
So the idea here is to smooth that out, doing a little every day, assures that you’ve got a constant flow of work.

Kevin Daisey (12:47):
I love it. I totally agree with you. And you know, we do sales training for our sales for like internally for my company. And we, we try to, you gotta have those activities going because I, I talk to a lot of attorneys, especially when they come to us maybe as looking for help in marketing, things like that. Right. And they don’t have predictability, like what is your sales gonna be next month?

Eric Dewey (13:11):

Kevin Daisey (13:12):
Well, I don’t know. We’re busy right now, but then I’m gonna be slow. Or I got this many cases last month and I’m half I’m down this month. So they have this ebbs and flows, like you said, right. Or FEAS or famine. And they’re no predictability. So they’re really a lot of these sperms I talk to, they, they kind of stay stagnant at the same level. Yeah. You know, 2 million year, 5 million, whatever their level is. They, they kind of, they’re stuck there and then, and they just, yeah,

Eric Dewey (13:40):
Yeah. Breaking, breaking outta those habits is difficult. The other thing is they often don’t have the information they need. So when I look at a, when I look in attorney’s practice, I get their financials, I get their clients, I get their contacts. I get, you know, I interview them with what they’ve been doing and whatnot. And then I say, what’s the average matter value. Like when you get a matter to change the clauses in a technology contract, how much do you typically make on that? Well, they, they don’t, they’ll say it depends. Well, of course it depends, but what’s, what’s the average that you’re gonna get on that. And then how many people do you need to contact in order to generate enough inquiries to generate the volume of work that you want to do? So that’s, that’s in the book and it’s a step by step process. Here’s the information you need. Here’s how you calculate it. Here’s how you can adjust it based on, you know, the close rate. You you’re familiar with close rates. Yeah. You know, if you talk to 20 different people, you might get two matters outta that 20 different people. So you have a 10% close rate. That’s that’s really good actually. Where, or you may only get one in, you know, in which case you have a 5% sure close rate, which is a little low.

Kevin Daisey (14:58):
So you, but you need those numbers. I think so. I think that’s the important thing too, is for one, the tool is great. So you have the tool to do the math and, and honestly, when we’re talking to prospects, it’s those a lot of the things that I need to help me understand where they need to go and if we can even take them there. Yeah. so it’s, it’s rare that I have someone that’s like, they know their closing rate, they know their average client and off the top of their head. Yeah. and so it’s, it’s nice when I do get a someone like that. Yeah. but most do not. So yeah, if you’re an attorney listening, those are things you should know off the top of your head, whether you’re the managing partner or just a an attorney at the firm, it should be important to you. Yeah. And another side note too, for non managing partners. So for attorneys that are at a firm that maybe the firm feeds you, the leads or feeds you the, the work. Right. Be careful if you leave that firm or go try to start your own, because now you’ve spent how many years at a firm and you’ve built no network, no power grid. And then you’re like, oh, now I gotta bring in my own cases, my own work off my network. And you failed to, to focus on that. So

Eric Dewey (16:17):
Yeah, when we do the calculations, it it’s primarily. So, you know, the, the question I get most often is what do I need to do? And how much do I need to do it to hit a million dollars or to hit $5 million or, you know, $10 million in, in business? Well, the only way to really figure that out is to back out of that number, using the average matter value. Sure. And so you know, I’ll, I’ll ask them, you know, how many, how many calls or visits or, you know, events do you, do you do for business development each week? And they’ll go I, I probably, you know, I try to have lunch with somebody at least once a week and I’ll be like, okay, if you do that, and you’re successful 8% of the time, that means that you’re not gonna generate work until this point in time.

Eric Dewey (17:10):
So you need to amp up the volume that you’re doing and what, you know, what a lot of attorneys are doing is they’ll, they’ll write client alerts and they’ll, you know, do an article and they’ll rely on that to generate inquiries when that’s not a bad thing to do, but it’s not the most efficient way to develop work. The most efficient way is to develop power grid and contact those people on a regular basis, because it’s not you one to one, it’s now 150 people who have 150 people each. So you’ve, you, you create what a force multiplier in, in military jargon, they call it <laugh> force multiplier. Well, the force multiplier is working with people that want to help you too, that you want to help them. And they want to help you that that multiplies the force of your network. And so that that’s, the book is mostly about that.

Eric Dewey (18:06):
If you’re a managing partner, listening to this podcast, I’d encourage you to sit down with all the attorneys in the firm, ask them to go through and list everybody they know and pass positions, everything, get a master list of contacts. And then look at the reach of the firm, how many different people in how many different industries and how many different companies do all the, do all the partners of the firm know. And from that, that’s your net value that that’s the value of the firm. Those relationships are the future revenue stream of that firm. And it’s a really good thing to know, because once you know that information, you can then begin to step back and say, okay, these, this guy has the best relationships with these different clients. Focus on these guys. You ha, this other guy has great relationships with these other guys.

Eric Dewey (19:02):
So you begin to divide and conquer. And until that happens, you know, what, what I see as managing partners, all of a sudden they realize holy cow, there are a lot of people that we know that we’re not staying in touch with. Sure. And if we did imagine what, you know, kind of work would be able to come out of that. And so pool a group of partners from complimentary practice areas, synergistic practice areas. And we do a group coaching program. They go through the process, they assemble their master contact list. They categorize them and prioritize ’em. And then we meet on a monthly basis and a group coaching session. And they’re assigned to go out and contact their contacts you know, on a regular basis, preferably through a day, but one a day works. And then we talk about, what did you learn?

Eric Dewey (19:54):
What market intelligence did you get? What opportunities are you seeing? How can we collaborate on those opportunities? And you know, how much coverage do you have of the marketplace and what can we do to improve that coverage? And it, it, it’s, it’s the only way to really build collaboration in the firm, because through those group coaching programs, they learn about each other’s practice. They learn about, you know, what they like, they learn about their clients. They really get to know each other’s practice cuz you know, you go around and you talk about it. And it’s a very, it’s a very powerful way to, to really begin to manage the, the, the force of the firm. I mean the, the, the referral network and the connections network of a law firm is really is the, is really the fuel of that law firm. And so when they can combine all the power grids together and see the ex the extent and the reach of that network, it really is. It’s it’s, I don’t see a lot of managing partners do it, but I think it’s the most important thing they should be doing. If you’re not managing the outreach of the firm, you’re not managing the revenues of the firm.

Kevin Daisey (21:13):
That’s a good point. And so I think this is, it is really untapped resources, right? So this people are already there in your life. Right. But you’re

Eric Dewey (21:24):
Talking about,

Kevin Daisey (21:24):
But you’re not doing anything to engage them. And I think you know, similar as like a, you know, like a power base, like a, is their friends, family, but are we have these people that are around us that we know, but no matter how well you think you do at marketing yourself or putting C on social media or whatever, I have close friends or family that don’t know what I do. Exactly. Yeah. And so don’t just assume that’s true. Well, everyone knows what I do. So if they need something, they’ll just reach out. <Laugh> and then here’s the thing, how many other people do they know that do the same thing you do that they just didn’t think about you? Not because they don’t like you. Yeah. But you weren’t top of mind. So you make that call, you go have that lunch, whatever may be. Exactly. And they go, okay, I didn’t know Kevin was even doing that. I know, you know, <laugh>

Eric Dewey (22:19):
In the book, I talk about your critical few. Those are the people that you talk to all the time, friends, family, peers, mentors, those, those kinds of people, you know, you have a group of people that are, that do know what you do, know what you’re trying to accomplish and whatnot. And they’re, and they’re the people that you stay in touch with. But imagine if you had 150 of those people that were like your critical few. Sure. That’s what a power grid is. It, it, it is a group of people who all share the same values, share the same commitment. They’re givers. They’re looking out to help other people, they know how to deliver value in their relationships with others. And, and so you can, you know, if you talk to people things begin to happen and you stay on their radar and they’ll think of you. So, but you can’t talk to everybody. So pick the best people to talk to. And that that’s, that’s the concept essentially, of, of a power grant.

Kevin Daisey (23:19):
No, I think it is great. And yeah, that’s just something we failed to do. Right. I have so many people I know and connected to in the, in my community or even though legal space, but we tend to just go do all these other initiatives. Yeah. Send out, you know, write articles, send out a newsletter to your, you know, whatever, but, and we stop there. Yeah. And just go, okay. I don’t know why I’m not getting more referrals. I don’t understand why, why. Yeah. And you’re, you just haven’t took the time to, to, to talk to these folks and, and exactly. Or even identify ’em. So I think, you know, your whole concept is identify, ’em pull it down to the top one 50. Yeah. Yeah. And then start working that

Eric Dewey (24:00):
Yeah, there, yeah. There are, I mean, there are people you don’t want in your power grid, but that may be potential clients. And so you, you know, the, the I’ve even, I, I even mockingly, I guess, self mockingly say, you know, get the book and then get it, all the people in your power grid to get the book. So they all have the same principles, values, they understand the vision, they, everybody understands the same process that they’re going through. So that, you know, when you, when you talk about for you know, upper right hand quadrant work, that’s like jargon that you’re not gonna understand what I’m talking about, unless you’ve gone through the process of evaluating your practice through the practice position model and understanding where your practice is in the marketplace. But when you have that common understanding, it becomes short.

Eric Dewey (24:56):
It becomes like a shortcut it’s throwaway descriptions of, of what you’re trying to really say. And in this case, upper right hand quadrant work is the low price sensitivity, high value strategically important work being done for corporations that other lawyers can’t easily substitute in and do that work because gotcha. You know, the business so well, you know, the industry so well, you know you know, that your client’s needs and preferences so well, that, that you’ve you have very low price sensitivity. You can charge higher rates for that work cuz it’s strategically important to the corporation. And it’s hard to replace another attorney because they just don’t know it as well. And so part of this book is how do you, how do you understand the business so well that you can speak in a business manager’s jargon and you know, how do you understand their model so that when you apply your legal advice, it’s be, it’s being it’s applied in the context of their business. So yeah, I can go,

Kevin Daisey (26:10):
You can go on and on people

Eric Dewey (26:12):

Kevin Daisey (26:12):
Well, so I think it’s great. I think it’s, I mean, I know you know, I talked with Eric the other day actually, and when we chatted and you know, he sent me a list of other topics and things. And so he is got so much more that he could talk about on here today and regarding sales and cross selling and other things like that. So I think it’s important to connect with Eric, take a look at his work, look at the book, get the book. And cuz there’s, I think a lot you can learn from him and I not. And I think I talked to him about this early too, is this apply to my business. So you don’t have to be in law firm necessarily. I think these are things that any professional service business should be doing and it could be consumer focused or, or business focused. This, this will work. You need to have a network, you have to be intentional about it.

Eric Dewey (27:05):

Kevin Daisey (27:06):
And, and the people you have the network with, I’m sure they they want the same thing. They want to have that same network.

Eric Dewey (27:14):
Can I leave your listeners with one last really valuable piece of advice?

Kevin Daisey (27:18):
Of course <laugh>

Eric Dewey (27:21):
So just about every business pitch I’ve ever done, there has been an incumbent provider doing the work. So it’s an RFP process. It’s a panel review or what have you, or even just going to pitch some your work to a prospective client. There is almost always either an attorney already doing the work or an attorney. They know who could do the work. And so those are what I call incumbent providers. You just go in and pitching how great you are. Competitive pitch really doesn’t do much because no, no general counsel is going to change their law firm and disrupt their business until they first question the value that they’re getting from their current provider. Sure. And so the conversation should be about having that general counsel think about the value they’re getting out of their current provider. So the one question that you can ask whenever there’s an incumbent provider is to ask, how would you know, when it was time to review how those matters are being handled. Hmm. And then let them describe to you what they would look for to know whether it was time to reconsider how those matters are being handled and then pro and what else, and, you know, and ask that’s what I call the awe question a E <laugh> and what else

Kevin Daisey (28:54):
And what else. Yeah.

Eric Dewey (28:56):
And, and basically you want them to mentally go through all aspects of their relationship, both, you know, their, their personal and social relationship, but also the technical quality, the technology they’re using their matter management processes, how they communicate with you. So you want them to really evaluate and until they do that, you’ll never really know the best strategy to use to win that work. And so the first step is to ask the client, how would you know, if it were time to reconsider how these matters are being handled? Sure. Price. Yeah. Yeah. The price went up. So did you look for,

Kevin Daisey (29:42):
I like that. That’s really good. So that’s some kinda how we work with when I’m talking to law firms. Right. Cause I’m in a position of trying to sell and work with law firms. So, and we always have an incumbent it’s almost every time either they’ve done it in house or they have someone internally or they got an agency. Yeah. But it’s, I’ve asked a very similar question and to anyone listening that it’s, it’s really the best way because yeah. You can just talk about how awesome you are and your features and yeah. The price and all that stuff and your benefits, even you can go all the way down, but yeah. But is there really a need, you know, what would a relationship with someone like us look like, what would you be looking for in a relationship? What would success look like to you? Yeah. And then once they they’ve spit all that out and then they go, okay, well, do I have that right now? Yeah. And you’re hoping that they, they don’t really have all that. And so I think that’s beautiful.

Eric Dewey (30:42):
The thing that I try to, to remind lawyers is that they’re really not in a salesperson job. They’re in a change management job. And anytime a business changes, how they’re handling things, changes a vendor, changes of technology, whatever it disrupts the business and disruption is the worst thing for any business. All business managers want is smooth operations, predictability, low risk. Once they’ve got a good operating model, they don’t want to change it. Yeah. And so what you offer has to be so much better than what they have, that it’s worth, worth the cost of disruption and the potential unintended consequences that could happen as part of that change. Yeah. And so when you go at it from the aspect of how, how are we gonna manage change versus how am I gonna persuade them, sell them. <Laugh> it’s a much more advisory type role, which fits lawyers much better. Yeah. And it also gives you an opportunity to learn a lot about the business that you’re not gonna get when you’re trying to persuade them to use you.

Kevin Daisey (31:57):
No, I, I completely agree. And again, what you’re saying applies to me, cuz if someone wants to redo their marketing, their website, like that’s a big change and they’re usually fearful of that. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> well, I just got a website done by the last company. Do I need to really build on another one? Yeah. So there there’s a lot of fear

Eric Dewey (32:14):
That is bad.

Kevin Daisey (32:15):
Yeah. And so if you’re just trying to sell ’em because you know, you just want it all or you need it. All right. It’s not gonna work at the end of the day. You’re gonna get caught up and they’re gonna say, yeah, we’re not gonna make a change right now. There’s not enough pain for them to, to do it. Exactly. And, and they don’t see the need. So yeah. And that’s very true. What Eric’s saying, there, there might be a need, it’s just not uncovered enough. It’s not exposed because they probably haven’t took the time to, even, to evaluate every, since you, you know, bit of it. Right. So yeah,

Eric Dewey (32:48):
Those, those conversations also can keep you from continuously pursuing an opportunity that doesn’t exist. So in other words, you go through what would need to happen for you to reconsider how you’re handling these things? How would you know that? Well, they’d say, you know, they may know pretty quickly, great. You’re in good hands. I’m not gonna try to wrestle you, you know, you away from somebody who’s doing good.

Kevin Daisey (33:14):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you, you need to be able to do that and you’d be in a position where you can say no or that. And we did this recently with a, a potential client. They, they, they basically felt obligated to talk to us cause they were referred. Then we got look in and digging and talking and, and everything and asking them questions and everything was great. Everything from our side looks great. The results are great. And we said, well, what, what made you talk with us? Well, this one person referred you. So I thought, I thought it was worth talking to you just in case maybe in the future. I had a need. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was so great. Let’s stay in touch, but you don’t need us.

Eric Dewey (33:54):

Kevin Daisey (33:55):
Yeah. I don’t wanna disrupt company

Eric Dewey (33:57):
In that case. Hey, you’re in good hands. Do you know anybody else? Who’s not in good hands. Yeah. <Laugh>

Kevin Daisey (34:02):
Yeah. Pivot, pivot, ask for the referral and yeah,

Eric Dewey (34:05):
Exactly. <Laugh>

Kevin Daisey (34:07):
Yeah, no, I, I think that’s great. And, and people appreciate that if you can come to that conclusion quickly.

Eric Dewey (34:13):
Yeah. They wanna be

Kevin Daisey (34:14):
Validated and not waste their time.

Eric Dewey (34:15):
Yeah. They want to know that it’s good. They’ve got an objective outside opinion and yeah, it’s true. It, and, and you’ve created a great relationship because you’ve helped them kind of look carefully at how they’re, how their providers are handling their work. And you know, that, that, that in and of itself is a lot of value to people. So when you approach the conversation from that aspect, you’re actually approaching it from a client value delivery standpoint. Not what’s in it for me, but yeah. How, but you know, that goes off the table. I wanna approach it from how will we know you’re in good hands.

Kevin Daisey (34:57):
Yeah. I love that. And then there’s a couple things that’ll happen after that one. They might come back to you later. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> when they do have a need or two they’ll refer you and talk out great of, you know, a company you are or person, even though they didn’t do business with you. Yep. Because they know you’re gonna take care of that, that referral. Yeah. And so

Eric Dewey (35:19):
Yeah, it’s like an, it, it’s like a display of integrity that, that really, you know, forms spaces for trust. So when you approach it from the standpoint of how do I know I could actually add value to this relationship? You know, you’re absolutely right. Kevin, they’re gonna talk about you cuz it’s, it’ll be a pleasant experience in that UN experience. Unfortunately doesn’t happen that often with people that are trying to get ’em on the phone

Kevin Daisey (35:49):
No, a hundred percent. And so that’s helped us and that’s <laugh> and especially in my space, that’s you know, people just wanna sell you the stuff and that’s it. There’s not really any allegiance there. So we try to do that ourselves. So it’s worked well and listen to what, listen to what Eric is telling you. And I think it’ll, it’ll be a, a good experience for you. So yeah. Eric will wrap up here. Anything else you want to share? I’ll I’ll share here in just a second. Again, the book and the links and stuff like that. Anything else you wanna leave? Our guests, our listeners with,

Eric Dewey (36:26):
You know, I did another podcast and, and he said, you know, what, three action items should people walk away with? And I thought that was a really good way to close out the podcast. And, and for me, I would say go through your contact list, try to figure out everybody that, you know, and, and then two prioritize those and try to get 150 in your power grid. And then three challenge yourself to make three calls a day. It’s difficult, cuz you want to do work, you know, client work first and whatnot, but you gotta figure out a way to make three calls touches with potential clients every day. And if you do that you know, you will generate work. I, I can practically guarantee. I mean, you gotta be doing something really bad under your calls. If you’re not generating work or you’re talking to completely the wrong people or whatever, but

Kevin Daisey (37:24):
I think that’s great. No, it will work. It will. If you’re consistent too. And, and block yourself, I do this for myself. I I’ll block 30 minutes even per day. Right. And you can get a lot of calls in. Sometimes you might not get them. You might have to leave a voicemail or something like that, but it might take you five minutes to make three calls and right. And now, you know, go on to your, to your work. But yeah, I think like take away a fourth takeaway would be what you said early, have a reason and a plan for that call mm-hmm <affirmative> you know, so you’re not just, oh, Hey Eric. Yeah. How you doing? Great. Okay. See you. And then you didn’t accomplish anything

Eric Dewey (38:03):
<Laugh> you have to have a call objective, right?

Kevin Daisey (38:06):
Yeah. I would say the biggest thing is get Eric’s book. So that you can probably see all the details. I know I have a copy of his book coming but power grids, you can find it if not, by searching for it on Amazon or on Google, if not just visit his website, it’s E legal So that’s legal, not illegal training, but E that’s.

Eric Dewey (38:32):
So people know what that website is. It’s actually a platform with about 200 business development and practice development courses on it. And so everything from like feedback, time management, delegation, building your network of connections building a specialty practice area. There’s wow. We, yeah, my partners and I created a a platform with with five to 15 minute long videos with training and exercises and what have you. So that’s, that’s what illegal, it’s electronic legal training, but like e-discovery but we thought the illegal play on words would make it memorable.

Kevin Daisey (39:14):
<Laugh> I love it. <Laugh> the first time you said it to me last time I talked to you was I was like, wait, what’d you say <laugh>

Eric Dewey (39:20):

Kevin Daisey (39:21):
So no, I love that. So, so it, Eric has a ton to offer to everyone here listening tons of different resources. I’m sure he’s got plenty of stuff. That’s just out there versus you can get his book or, or take a look at a Z training programs and see if there’s something that might be something you need to, to dig into. But regardless, if not connect with Eric directly, what’s the best way for listeners to look you up, Eric personally. And

Eric Dewey (39:47):
I I’m Eric G Dewey on LinkedIn and or my, you can just, my personal email is Eric G Dewey G is in grant Dewey or Eric illegal or my consulting business is group Dewey consulting. So that’s

Kevin Daisey (40:11):
Excellent. Awesome. Well, yeah. Do yourself’s favorite reach out to Eric connect with him? Linkedin’s easiest for me, but that’s you know, go, you can rewind this, get his email addresses and, and reach out to him. He’s he is a great resource. I’m sure we’ll have him on again. We’ll be featuring him in the newsletter as well. So Eric, thank you so much for sharing tons of information. And I know that’s just the tip of the iceberg for what you have to share, especially in the roles that you’ve had. So

Eric Dewey (40:38):
Appreciate it. Well, I’m working on the, I’m working on my next book. It’s called the intrinsic approach. How lawyers can sell more by selling less and I’d love to be back on your podcast then.

Kevin Daisey (40:50):
Oh, absolutely. No problem. You can guarantee it so well, Eric, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing. Everyone.

Eric Dewey (40:56):

Kevin Daisey (40:57):
You. Want me to find this episode as well as over 200 other episodes? We’re we’re crossing the two 50, I think mark here soon with a backlog that we have but go to Ray four slash podcast. That’ll let you sort by state by practice area. And with folks like Eric coming on more regularly now we’ll be adding another filter, which will probably be industry experts or something of that degree, but that’s where you can find Eric. But look on our YouTube. It’ll be live on my LinkedIn Facebook. So this episode will be out there. It’ll also be feature our newsletter, which you can sign up for on our website. And also if you’re interested in learning more about digital marketing, how we do that for our attorneys, only for the ones that we can help. I promise you <laugh> <laugh> it’s yeah. Get rate a We help attorneys grow by increasing their organic traffic, their you know how they’re found on Google, how they’re found on social media, how they’re represented in, in the market. So if you need help with that, you have any questions. Reach out to me, get a Ray Happy to help you with any questions you have. Eric. Thank you so much.

Eric Dewey (42:10):
Thank you, Kevin. Really? I enjoyed it.

Kevin Daisey (42:14):
Oh, me too. Hey, everyone got some great out of it. Check this out, rewind it. Take you know your takeaways and we’ll talk to you soon.

Eric Dewey (42:23):

Kevin Daisey (42:24):
Bye everyone.

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